It Happens For A Reason

[killerzzz]

Anyone ever tell you that everything happens for a reason? Or if its from a religious person, they might say God does everything for a reason.

What did or do you think of it? Is some higher power interfering with our lives, for better or for worse? Personally, I was never really sure of what I thought about it.

And recent strange events have not made it any easier, but certainly have brought it to mind again.

For example, I had to be somewhere early one morning. It would be a long drive, and traffic would be heavy. One road would get me to my destination more quickly and someone suggested I should take it. I considered it, but then for some reason, I felt uncomfortable about it. So I took the longer road.

I was late. Luckily I was still able to do it.

A few hours later, I was having some traffic-hating small-talk with someone I know who was in the area. In the conversation, they said that there was a pretty bad three car pile up on the that faster road that morning. When I asked when and where it happened, I was surprised to find that it was just about where I would have been at that time if I'd taken that road. But I suppose that's an iffy story. I could have been far on either side of the accident, right? How could I predict how the traffic would have gone.

Smaller example: someone called me early one morning, earlier than I wake up, to ask me something. I was a bit irritated of course, but after I realized that I was supposed to wake up extra early that morning, and the call was what helped.

There are many many many more situations like those that alone, spoke nothing to me, but by their sheer numbers make me wonder. I look back, and I see this sort of thing happened a lot in my past. Little things, big things, noticeable and invisible.

Then I think of all the times I was late or schedules changed or some other odd intervention took place, and I was frustrated that my day was off course. It's in situations like that, people tell me, everything happens for a reason. Maybe I was late because someone sped through a red light when I would have been there. That gap in traffic let the person through. Maybe maybe maybe maybe.

What if what if what if? It makes me wonder, I don't know about you guys.

In fact, if we want to dig deeper, we can take this opportunity to question reality in itself.

Why do these things keep intervening? Is your life being saved several times a day, by something so simple as noticing your shoe is untied? By accidentally bumping in to someone then taking those 4 crucial seconds to apologize before crossing the street, not noticing the vehicle that sped by as your back was turned? Why does this happen? Why do we not die in dreams? Because then, the dream would end. The story would end. The story of your life. Cogito ergo sum. What is real? You can only be certain of your own existence right? Is this why something changes the flow of life to keep you around? Because this is your dream, your story?

And last of all: is it your story, or someone else's? Are you being kept around to do good or wrong? Are you a primary or secondary character? Are you a good guy or a bad guy?

Killerzzz

[Dark Phoenix Rising]

I can think of a couple of answers to this.

1) The gods work in mysterious ways, and sometimes good things will happen, and sometimes bad things will happen (that have no desernable reason), these are the times they are meddling in our lives.
2) Everyone is a bit psychic, and so those flashes of precognition can liturally save your life. However because of the society we live in, if it doesn't have an easily explainable reason, then it must be discarded, as it's either an arcane scientific explaination, or you're mistaken.
3) Feaces happens, and it's just coincedental
4) All of the above (which is what I prefer). The gods do exist, and they do nudge things occasionally, but not so much that you can attributes everything that is outside the norms to them. Everyone does have some level of psychic ability, but because we live in the age of reason, and our psychic abilities are a) not that reliable, and b) not very showy, we tend to discard their existance. And finally stuff does happen.

As for the dream stuff - This is reality, this is real. We can shape our lives by our thoughts, and we can shape the lives of others with our thoughts. But the only way out is through death. What we can't do with our thoughts is change anything (like a carver with a bit of wood, they can make it look like pretty much anything, but it's still a bit of wood [unless they burn it, and then it's charcoal])

One last thing is that I think that if we choose to learn, there are lessons to be learnt every day, from what we do, and what we see others do.

[Elliot Kane]

I think everyone is a bit psychic. It's like when you look at someone (Or they look at you) and they turn around because they somehow know they're being watched. Back when we were on the cutting edge of extinction, awareness of these odd little feelings probably helped us to stay alive a lot more than now. We listen to our inner selves a lot less, but the instincts remain.

Creative types (Like you, Kaz) tend to be more sensitive anyway and that probably helps. Minor precognition is more common than we think, I am sure.

If the world is being influenced, guided, directed, etc is unknown and quite possibly unknowable. Which is a shame, as I'd like to know who to thank and who to sock in the mouth, as it were! ;D Should there be thanks to be given, be sure there is also blame!

Sometimes I see moves on a vast game board... sometimes it just looks like coincidence. Depends on the angle of view. WAS Hitler nothing but a feint to allow for the rise of Stalin? You could read it that way, if you see the world as a giant chess set...

[ss]

Sept 18, 2009 16:43:09 GMT Elliot Kane said:

I think everyone is a bit psychic. It's like when you look at someone (Or they look at you) and they turn around because they somehow know they're being watched. Back when we were on the cutting edge of extinction, awareness of these odd little feelings probably helped us to stay alive a lot more than now. We listen to our inner selves a lot less, but the instincts remain.

Creative types (Like you, Kaz) tend to be more sensitive anyway and that probably helps. Minor precognition is more common than we think, I am sure.

If the world is being influenced, guided, directed, etc is unknown and quite possibly unknowable. Which is a shame, as I'd like to know who to thank and who to sock in the mouth, as it were! ;D Should there be thanks to be given, be sure there is also blame!

Sometimes I see moves on a vast game board... sometimes it just looks like coincidence. Depends on the angle of view. WAS Hitler nothing but a feint to allow for the rise of Stalin? You could read it that way, if you see the world as a giant chess set...

It could be read that way....and it may be right...but...and it is a big but.....

If anyone accepts the concept of "Free Will", then it doesn't matter if in the grand scheme of things God is directing every action to work out exactly as He is planning for it to do..

YOU are still, solely and totally, accountable for YOUR own actions.

But then that would mean that Predestination and Freewill are BOTH viable and at the same time... (which they are)... and very few people that I know of can come to grips with that reality... ;D

Mainly because they cannot (will-not) see a unique, single, omnipotent God in charge of this universe, (which belongs to HIM, not us), and if one cannot see God as a person, yet beyond our comprehension, then they can only envision Him as simply a "higher" being...which still makes Him like us.....only better...

even the Mormons teach that we will "become" gods ourselves. ....which shows a total lack of understanding about the God of the Bible...

So yes Kzz....everything DOES happen for a reason... ;D

[Elliot Kane]

But then that would mean that Predestination and Freewill are BOTH viable and at the same time... (which they are)... and very few people that I know of can come to grips with that reality...

Most people can't 'come to grips with that reality' because it's blatantly untrue, ss. At best it's an example of doublethink - the ability to hold two completely contradictory views as true at the same time.

As I've noted before, if everything is already set in stone, free will cannot exist.

[kilgoretrout]

The world is a great extension of the mind. What we can plainly see represents the conscious element , what we cannot explain represents the subconscious element. As with psychology one can make an effort to trace the causes of any particular symptom which might manifest in an unexplainable phenomenon, ie certain fears, reactions or intuitions.

It becomes rather difficult to trace those connections on such a large scale , such as psychoanalysis would do for one person , it would be impossible to make those connections with so many people on earth. Unless one could understand the archetypes present in each persons psyche , the fact that we are all reacting in basic ways to the same archetypes , reacting with instincts in much the same way.

[Flix]

I think we've evolved as pattern-seekers. Our unparalleled pattern recognition is beneficial for our survival. But it also means we find a lot of patterns where there aren't any. Humans also seem to be natural story-tellers, so we also like to think that we're part of some larger story.

So, my predicatable answer is nothing happens for some higher purpose, and we feel otherwise because we are imaginative inventors capable of astonishing feats of self-delusion.

[janggut]

so love is just chemical + random encounter?

[Flix]

No, it's magical and it filters down from the sky like fairy dust. Yes, I basically believe it's all in the brain. But calling it "just" a chemical reaction is misleading. It doesn't make it any less significant or profound that love comes from within us instead of from some outside source. LSD and mescaline trips are 'just' chemical reactions in the brain, so is schizophrenia, and lucid and waking dreams. Yet all of these "mere" chemical reactions can have profound and staggering effects on identity, beliefs, and sense of reality itself.

I NEVER underestimate the power of the brain to construct its own reality.

And it's not all random encounters either. People work hard to meet and date other people, and go through a lot of failures and rejection before finding a true love. Those are the reasons people find love, not some mystical reason that's part of a grand master plan.

Love is what it is. It can be as earthshakingly powerful or as empty and meaningless as the person feels it to be. It doesn't have anything to do with a higher purpose or that everything happening in the world is for some reason that's bigger than us.

[killerzzz]

Thanks for your opinions everyone, this is some interesting stuff. ;D

@elliot and DPR: I can't believe I forgot the possibility of precognition! It's one of my favorite theories for all sorts of other things, but I didn't even connect it to this one!

@dpr: I too definitely find that #4 has always been my attitude for life. God gives His nudges, foresight gives it's guidance, random encounters do their thang too.

I also sometimes like to add in a fourth half-joking factor, Irony, the strange sense of humour of the fabric of the universe. ;D

ss and Elliot: I'm trying to think of a way to put predestination and free will together... ;D Hmm... Oh! Try this on for size.

Let's consider two concepts.
For this experiment, we are assuming God does exist and that everything happens for a reason.

1. God has set up a scenario, the universe, and knows what is going to happen. He knows already, but He does not directly make it happen. Just because He already knows it, doesn't mean we aren't choosing to do it. He just knows what choices we are going to make, and basically could just sit back, relax, and see the show unfold. If you've seen a movie before, and so know what is going to happen, do you change the story when you watch it a second time? No.

Please don't think I'm actually comparing God observing life to a person watching a movie, because it's most definitely not the same. Just trying to give an infinitely smaller scaled scenario that we can relate to a bit. Just keep in mind: He knows what we're going to choose to do, but does not force us to choose it.

2. Now let's blend theories a bit. Let's say we ARE a bit psychic, okay? So God must have made us that way (duh ). Now, he's the big part. You ready? Consider: God gave us this precognition so that we might, in a matter of speaking, do His nudging FOR Him. Allow me to explain. The psychic nudges guide us through certain scenarios, help us make choices, change our direction, and on a large scale can make big changes for the world. Or on a smaller scale, save us from scraping an elbow.

Now we must think of part 1. God gave us life, and being omniscient, knew how life would turn out. But He's God. He has a plan. If everything good and bad happens for a reason, what is His reason? Well: God gave us precognition, and being omniscient, knew how it would guide our actions. The psychic phenomena resonates on a large scale. If everyone is foreseeing things all over the world all the time but not knowing it, then we are ALL unconsciously changing the world, the future, in a fixed pattern. Everyone unknowingly sees the future, everyone unknowingly pushes upon it, shaping it, as it is MEANT to be shaped. God created us in His image. What greater reflection of Him than actually being the ones setting our destinies by the choices we make? Get the big joke? WE are setting our predestination with OUR free willing choices because GOD gave us the ability to do so KNOWING that we would because He's God and he knows his stuff.

Wiew! Get all that, or did I babble? Remember, this is literally a theory that I have just made up on the spot right now. Does it make sense? Anything to add or cut or set on fire? ;D

Killerzzz

[Elliot Kane]

Kaz...

Predestination means that everything is guaranteed to happen in the way it does because it's all laid down by divine fiat. Free will means we have a choice. There is just no connecting the two.

Foresight is perfectly possible: your hypothetical singular deity knows everything we will decide in advance because he sits outside of time and can see all points in it. We have free will because he's not interfering, only watching.

But the moment the Grand Conductor picks up his baton and starts directing, that's the moment the improv comes to an end...

[killerzzz]

Yeah... >_>

I was just trying to blur the lines, trouble the terms and whatnot.

What I was getting at was that, in the theory, everything is set in stone, because we are doomed to set it as such by the choices we make, guided by our intuition, which were put there by God, knowing what we would set in stone, by the choices we make... etc etc.

It's pushing it. It's saying we have free will, but with worldwide foresight in the way, our free will will be guided into the end stone result that was expected and purposefully brought about by putting in place that foresight by the higher being.

Which pretty much sounds redundant. I dunno, I'm trying to break the rules and boundaries of the terms.

Killerzzz

[Elliot Kane]

You're trying to get ss' 'both can be true' to work, which is an interesting intellectual exercise, but it's really like trying to say that a curtain is bright red on both sides AND bright green on both sides at the same time.

Foresight allows the front of the curtain to be red and the back of the curtain to be green, as it were. Perspective is the difference.

[ss]

Sept 23, 2009 21:41:23 GMT Elliot Kane said:

You're trying to get ss' 'both can be true' to work, which is an interesting intellectual exercise, but it's really like trying to say that a curtain is bright red on both sides AND bright green on both sides at the same time.

Foresight allows the front of the curtain to be red and the back of the curtain to be green, as it were. Perspective is the difference.

That is not what I am saying EK...just "appears" to be so... ;D

Really, both can be true, but has to be defined..I am not talking about the human intellects concept of the issue, I am talking about the Biblical teaching...(to which many disagree..)

Predestination IS by divine fiat....Free will is created reality to the human being (by God)..

The issue is always the issue of "first cause"...so to speak...

Biblical teaching....God (for)ordains (predestinates) all things in the created universe to work perfectly in accordance with His perfect will and desire. This is the "first cause" and is primary in its application.

Free will...is also a reality...from the human perspective, and is ACTUALLY so....you just cant exercise any will which can cause God to be "surprised" or any will that doesn't act in perfect response to his pre-ordained will.

Foreknowledge can only exist if one (God) can plan and then because He is omnipotent know that it CANNOT change nor be changed, then it has to happen and He knows then that it will (foreknowledge).

The human being IS, in all respects, choosing (freely) the choices he makes in life..this in no way contradicts that it will also be in the perfect will of God...the fact that God's predestinated order is PRIMARY and human will (totally free) works the way God planned for it to does not negate, in any way, that it is absolutely FREE.

In truth....nothing else would or could work...

[Elliot Kane]

In other words, really, you agree with me, ss?

[Dark Phoenix Rising]

I tend to view the whole predestination thing more like a giant physics experiment, that has been theorised, and each part has been tested multiple times, but this is the first time (that we know of) it's been run as one test.

Each reaction, change, and decision has been mapped out, and as long as the calculations are correct will turn out exactly the same way as the calculations. But as with all experiments there's a tolerance for error that will still get the same result, but will look slightly odd during the process. However as with all experiments, until it finishes you can't tell if it's worked or not.

[janggut]

@ EK & ss -> yep, u 2 have very similar ideas. if i can simplify what ss is saying, it'll be this - free will works within the framework of predestination. not sure if i get it right though. ;D

[Elliot Kane]

That would be the opposite of what I'm saying, Jang

Free will and predestination are, by their very natures, completely incompatible. In order to make the entire concept of 'insert-divinity-here knows everything' work with free will, you have to go with foresight rather than predestination.

I think ss knows that, really, he's just being awkward! ;D

[Ubereil]

Sept 23, 2009 16:53:55 GMT Elliot Kane said:

Kaz...

Predestination means that everything is guaranteed to happen in the way it does because it's all laid down by divine fiat. Free will means we have a choice. There is just no connecting the two.

Foresight is perfectly possible: your hypothetical singular deity knows everything we will decide in advance because he sits outside of time and can see all points in it. We have free will because he's not interfering, only watching.

But the moment the Grand Conductor picks up his baton and starts directing, that's the moment the improv comes to an end...

The problem is that this leads to determinism, which isn't compartible with free will either. Because if he knows what will happen then there's only one thing that can happen. If he knows all the possible chains of events from this point forwards then free will exists, but the only way he can know which chain will happen is if determinism is true.

Übereil

[Ubereil]

For those who'd like the key. ;D

Übereil