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Post by twoheadedragon on Oct 14, 2009 9:14:17 GMT
Oh yes, your maddening "it's exactly 50/50 either way, a perfect split, one is not even slightly more likely than the other..." You make a great Buddhist, always choosing the precise middle way. Well, if there's absolutely no actual proof of either position, my way makes sense, right? Zero for and zero against gives an exact 50/50 probability. And I'll take 'maddening' as a compliment! ;D Madness is fine, so long as it has a method!   ;D And yes, there's no SOLID "proof" for either one, hence both require... FAITH! |
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Post by Dark Phoenix Rising on Oct 14, 2009 9:20:10 GMT
YOU live in a flat World, which consists solely of material objects. The World I live in, on the other hand, is multi-dimensional, as I believe in the Spiritual.  I have to admit, I've always wondered what it is like, really believing in mystical magical things like that. To be inside a believer's head for a day... I will say, though, that being a believer still seems more limiting. Everything is already pretty much explained for you. There's beauty, it's God's creation. There's suffering, and it's a trial, or Lucifer, or whatever. There's an unusual moral problem, my spritiual teachings will tell me how to handle it. There's some new scientific finding, well if it contradicts the scripture then it's ignored or rejected. If it doesn't, then it's just part of God's creation and plan of course. You know I've always wondered what it's like living inside a persons mind. There's plenty that has to be explained, by some things can only be explained by arcane terms, symbols and techniques. There's beauty, so it's admired for being beautiful. There's suffering, and it's a shame, but what can I do about it (unless it's one of those guilt trip tv ads that are just trying to part me from my hard earned cash). There's an unusual moral problem, if they can't solve it, they'll ask their friends, or muddle along making the best choices they can. There's some new scientific finding, if they understand it, then it's cool and useful, otherwise it will just be ignored or rejected. |
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Post by twoheadedragon on Oct 14, 2009 9:20:39 GMT
See my answer in reply #23, this answers your question about pride, and humanity being created perfect. Let's see, if we don't get our morality from the Bible... Why don't we just get rid of criminal penalties for murder? Why don't we promote rape? Why don't we allow thievery/stealing in society? etc. etc. Yeah, let's just throw away all the laws and live like a bunch of evolved monkeys! Since, after all, there is no God, NO CREATOR, and CREATION IS FALSE... This means that nothing's right, nothing's wrong! Because ultimately, God would've had to put patterns of law and codes of morality down for mankind... But hey! Since we've done away with God, why don't we just do away with all laws and regulations? ... It's NO WONDER the crime rate has gone up dramatically over the past 50 years, due to the decline of belief in God no doubt. Erm, given that pretty much every religion has penalties for all of the above, but they don't necessarily call them sins. And they won't necessarily affect your chances of getting into heaven, but they all agree that they should be punished, why wouldn't a society that is completely atheist not come up with the same rules? After all, the good of the community is more important than the desires of an individual. Esp. in a survival situation. Well DPR, IF there is no God, or at the very least if we were not created by Him, then we are merely evolved apes (or penguins, amoebas, whatever  ) with no sense of "right" or "wrong," as that cannot have evolved but had to have been "placed" there in our minds... To quote Darwin: "survival of the FITTEST" is the mode of Evolution. NOT moral values. In fact, moral values contradict Evolution, i.e. "if I like your wife, why can't I just take your head off and drag her back to my cave?" (just to give a simple, quite horrific example) |
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Post by kilgoretrout on Oct 14, 2009 9:21:52 GMT
No. It doesn't "give" us anything. Except freedom from religion. We have to work for the rest. I agree wholeheartedly. The only god I can conceive of is flawed. Either he intentionally made man (and angels, for Christians) with the potential for evil, or he didn't know that Lucifer and Man would fall. Either way, something's lacking. The very idea that there's a heaven (perfect world) just shows that this universe ain't perfect, or even good. If there is a creator, I don't like him very much. As I've said before, the only way this world can reflect a perfect being is if somehow all this evil, suffering, and sorrow is the ONLY way to lead to a perfect world - a "end justifying the means" concept basically. There is no freedom in atheism, only bondage. What's gonna happen to you when you die? What's your purpose for living? Why were you even born in the first place? How did the Earth/Universe come into existence? Why is the Earth just the perfect distance from the Sun to sustain life on Earth? The first law of thermodynamics states that matter cannot be created or destroyed, making the big bang (or whatever other weird origin of life theory that doesn't involve a supreme Deity) an utter impossibility. Faith in God is what ultimately gives us freedom. Without God, you don't have freedom (due to all the above-mentioned problems). God loved man enough to grant him freedom of choice, all His creations have freedom of choice, Lucifer included. The way the World is today reflects the choices mankind has made throughout the ages, and sadly man's choices have been for the worse. What happens after one dies has nothing to do with the purpose of ones life. Sadley many think that their life has to extend beyond this earthly realm to have meaning. To consider that purpose has something to do with your own life being eternal, is again just kind of a selfish pursuit. |
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Post by twoheadedragon on Oct 14, 2009 9:23:36 GMT
I have to admit, I've always wondered what it is like, really believing in mystical magical things like that. To be inside a believer's head for a day... I will say, though, that being a believer still seems more limiting. Everything is already pretty much explained for you. There's beauty, it's God's creation. There's suffering, and it's a trial, or Lucifer, or whatever. There's an unusual moral problem, my spritiual teachings will tell me how to handle it. There's some new scientific finding, well if it contradicts the scripture then it's ignored or rejected. If it doesn't, then it's just part of God's creation and plan of course. You know I've always wondered what it's like living inside a persons mind. There's plenty that has to be explained, by some things can only be explained by arcane terms, symbols and techniques. There's beauty, so it's admired for being beautiful. There's suffering, and it's a shame, but what can I do about it (unless it's one of those guilt trip tv ads that are just trying to part me from my hard earned cash). There's an unusual moral problem, if they can't solve it, they'll ask their friends, or muddle along making the best choices they can. There's some new scientific finding, if they understand it, then it's cool and useful, otherwise it will just be ignored or rejected. LOL, the one I posted wasn't quite so positive... ;D But it DID go on a bit further than this one. |
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Post by twoheadedragon on Oct 14, 2009 9:26:46 GMT
There is no freedom in atheism, only bondage. What's gonna happen to you when you die? What's your purpose for living? Why were you even born in the first place? How did the Earth/Universe come into existence? Why is the Earth just the perfect distance from the Sun to sustain life on Earth? The first law of thermodynamics states that matter cannot be created or destroyed, making the big bang (or whatever other weird origin of life theory that doesn't involve a supreme Deity) an utter impossibility. Faith in God is what ultimately gives us freedom. Without God, you don't have freedom (due to all the above-mentioned problems). God loved man enough to grant him freedom of choice, all His creations have freedom of choice, Lucifer included. The way the World is today reflects the choices mankind has made throughout the ages, and sadly man's choices have been for the worse. What happens after one dies has nothing to do with the purpose of ones life. Sadley many think that their life has to extend beyond this earthly realm to have meaning. To consider that purpose has something to do with your own life being eternal, is again just kind of a selfish pursuit. Of COURSE the purpose of life has to extend beyond the "now!" If we just live this life and die, we are no better off than the vegetables we eat. I wonder, why do you always associate eternal life with selfishness? What's the matter, can't come to terms with the way you've lived your life? Don't worry, I don't think any of us can truly come to terms with that... EDT: Which is why we need to be saved by grace!  |
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Post by Elliot Kane on Oct 14, 2009 9:27:54 GMT
We each create our own version of reality, which is at least slightly different to everyone else's. As such, being in the mind of one religious person would not give you all the answers you need about their faith, any more than being in the mind of an Atheist would. You could only see what their belief is like for them, which would in no way translate into what it would be like for you, or any other. To some, faith is a crutch. Others it uplifts. To others, it is a burden to be borne or a responsibility. Some use it to shore up their inadequacies; others to keep their ego under control. Some use it to justify helping others, while some use it to justify any abuse or atrocity they can devise. Some truly believe, others merely try to or wish to or like to pretend for the sake of the social connections it gives them. Faith is a different thing to each of us, whatever we may believe  |
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Post by Glance A'Lot on Oct 14, 2009 9:36:36 GMT
To quote Darwin: "survival of the FITTEST" is the mode of Evolution. NOT moral values. In fact, moral values contradict Evolution, i.e. "if I like your wife, why can't I just take your head off and drag her back to my cave?" (just to give a simple, quite horrific example)
That is not quite correct - the 'fittest' in evolution is not necessarily the individual!
And 'fit' can also be a trait like cooperation - wolves hunt in packs => more success (food) for everybody than individual hunting. Buffalos herd together for protection => more success of survival for the species.
Thus the development of moral values to strengthen cohesion and the survival of the group can very well be something more fit than...
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Post by Ubereil on Oct 14, 2009 9:38:24 GMT
Man was created perfect, but with freedom of choice. And he was created with pride as well. And pride is still part of the seven deadly sins for a reason. The opposition of pride is humility, and that is a virtue. So, if any of those two, a perfect being would have been humble, don't you think? More importantly, if a perfect being would have been created with pride, it would also have been able to handle someone else trying to manipulate him/her through it, don't you think? I mean, you're saying the perfect being Eve got fooled! You're saying Eve had a weakness, her pride. Perfect beings don't have weaknesses. Perfection can't be improved upon, but Eve could, because you could have added mechanisms for handling her pride. Let's see, if we don't get our morality from the Bible... Why don't we just get rid of criminal penalties for murder? Why don't we promote rape? Why don't we allow thievery/stealing in society? etc. etc. Why does China do these things as well? They've never been Christian to any greater extent and it's certanly never been a great influence in the deciding organs of the Chinese goverment. Yeah, let's just throw away all the laws and live like a bunch of evolved monkeys! Since, after all, there is no God, NO CREATOR, and CREATION IS FALSE... This means that nothing's right, nothing's wrong! Because ultimately, God would've had to put patterns of law and codes of morality down for mankind... But hey! Since we've done away with God, why don't we just do away with all laws and regulations? ... Socrates once said "is it right because God said so or did God say so because it is right?" While you ponder that (or pick up a copy of The Elements of Moral Philosophy by James Rachels and read his text about the Divine Command theory) I'll try and sort out all the logical fallacies you commited in that text. I'll start with putting numbers to your statements to make it easier to comment on them: 1: Yeah, let's just throw away all the laws and live like a bunch of evolved monkeys! 2: Since, after all, there is no God, NO CREATOR, and CREATION IS FALSE... 3: This means that nothing's right, nothing's wrong! Because ultimately, God would've had to put patterns of law and codes of morality down for mankind... But hey! Since we've done away with God, why don't we just do away with all laws and regulations? ... Let's start with 2, becuase that is the easiest. That's a false dichotomy. Just because the Christian God doesn't exist doesn't mean no creator exists. By disproving the Christian God we don't disprove the Muslim God, for instance. Or a bunch of other theories that says that there is a Creator. 1: I believe that's another false dichotomy. Read Hobbes theory on The State of Nature. Once you have you will see that you don't need God to justify right and wrong. 3: See point one. Come to think of it, this whole piece is one gigant false dichotomy. That God doesn't exist doesn't mean there's no morality. Pretty much every metaethician of any value since Kant has been able to do it (more or less successfully). The US constitution wasn't based on "God Said So", it was based on contractualism. And that constitution's done pretty good so far, don't you think? It's NO WONDER the crime rate has gone up dramatically over the past 50 years, due to the decline of belief in God no doubt. It's very hard to tell how serious you're acually being...  Übereil |
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Post by twoheadedragon on Oct 14, 2009 9:43:27 GMT
To quote Darwin: "survival of the FITTEST" is the mode of Evolution. NOT moral values. In fact, moral values contradict Evolution, i.e. "if I like your wife, why can't I just take your head off and drag her back to my cave?" (just to give a simple, quite horrific example) That is not quite correct - the 'fittest' in evolution is not necessarily the individual! And 'fit' can also be a trait like cooperation - wolves hunt in packs => more success (food) for everybody than individual hunting. Buffalos herd together for protection => more success of survival for the species. Thus the development of moral values to strengthen cohesion and the survival of the group can very well be something more fit than... But that would only apply to their own little pack, they wouldn't extend those "values" towards other little packs... |
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Post by kilgoretrout on Oct 14, 2009 9:46:49 GMT
What happens after one dies has nothing to do with the purpose of ones life. Sadley many think that their life has to extend beyond this earthly realm to have meaning. To consider that purpose has something to do with your own life being eternal, is again just kind of a selfish pursuit. Of COURSE the purpose of life has to extend beyond the "now!" If we just live this life and die, we are no better off than the vegetables we eat. I wonder, why do you always associate eternal life with selfishness? What's the matter, can't come to terms with the way you've lived your life? Don't worry, I don't think any of us can truly come to terms with that... EDT: Which is why we need to be saved by grace! For the record , I ve lived a pretty stable life. Married for ten years , two kids , living in the same place for ten years , never been one to be destructive , not had many sexual partners , just sort of boring really , so no , nothing like that. I equate eternal life with selfishness , because to me thats all that it is. You are saying that without the prospect of your own reward , life is meaningless, I find that a selfish thing. |
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Post by Dark Phoenix Rising on Oct 14, 2009 9:54:40 GMT
Well DPR, IF there is no God, or at the very least if we were not created by Him, then we are merely evolved apes (or penguins, amoebas, whatever ) with no sense of "right" or "wrong," as that cannot have evolved but had to have been "placed" there in our minds... To quote Darwin: "survival of the FITTEST" is the mode of Evolution. NOT moral values. In fact, moral values contradict Evolution, i.e. "if I like your wife, why can't I just take your head off and drag her back to my cave?" (just to give a simple, quite horrific example) Our genetic upbringing is that we are a social animal and we need other people to survive. As such moral values become very important, because they help the group know and trust that the other people in the group won't do certain things, which means that the best hunter in the group can leave his wife at camp with the best fighter and be sure that she will still be his wife when he gets back. Or that his children will still be alive when he gets back. Thinking about it, it can probably be argued that the 3 traits that have enabled us to be as successful as a species as we are are 1) our ability to create tools 2) our ability to communicate abstract ideas to each other and 3) the fact that we are social animals. |
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Post by Elliot Kane on Oct 14, 2009 9:55:52 GMT
Might help some of you to read my Cycle Of Civilisation notes - and purpose of religion notes. You all know where they are |
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Post by Dark Phoenix Rising on Oct 14, 2009 10:03:25 GMT
@uberil - I believe that if you looked at the original lists of the 7 deadly sins the pride one would actually say - Being prideful is a sin, not pride is a sin.
I still find it intresting that murder is considered a deadly sin, but (according to the christian bible) killing is against the 4th commandment.
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Post by Dark Phoenix Rising on Oct 14, 2009 10:04:57 GMT
Might help some of you to read my Cycle Of Civilisation notes - and purpose of religion notes. You all know where they are Read it, understood it, and made my own judgements on it |
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Post by twoheadedragon on Oct 14, 2009 10:09:00 GMT
*groans* A perfect being would be humble, but still has a sense of pride in a certain form. The Pride that is evil is the one most people adhere to today, which puts self first. Man was created perfect, but ALSO with freedom of choice. And apparently Eve chose to eat the fruit, because what Satan said must've sounded pretty good: "hey wait a minute, I CAN be a God!" Satan didn't lie outright, just told a half-truth. And that's why Eve swallowed it. Because humanity has been created, and Adam + Eve had a God-given sense of right and wrong. Which they taught to their children, who taught their children, who taught their children... Granted, plenty of people have ignored moral values, but many have also kept them. The people who founded the Chinese government knew there had to be a code of laws, or everyone would just run around rampantly... But they knew because of what they had been taught to them... That's as easy as the "egg or chicken came first?" problem: obviously the Creator laid down the standard of what's right and wrong. Oh, and I figured that one out in about 0.2 seconds. For 2.: "God" is not only the Christian God. And when I wrote that, I wrote "God" as "The Creator," which is what I immediately followed "God" with in that particular sentence. For 1.: Since God originally determined what was right and wrong, and moral standards have since been passed down from generation to generation, by now pretty much everybody has a sense of right and wrong. And we all have one since we're created beings: it's called a "conscience." For 3.: See point 1! I've explained everything very clearly, it is painfully obvious you suffer from a severe "lack of comprehension" (or so as EK once put it recently). And no, I honestly don't think the U.S constitution has done very well at all. I really don't think so, even the uneducated understand me fairly easily... |
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Post by Elliot Kane on Oct 14, 2009 10:09:18 GMT
Might help some of you to read my Cycle Of Civilisation notes - and purpose of religion notes. You all know where they are Read it, understood it, and made my own judgements on it Oh, I know YOU're good with it, DPR |
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Post by Glance A'Lot on Oct 14, 2009 10:11:24 GMT
To quote Darwin: "survival of the FITTEST" is the mode of Evolution. NOT moral values. In fact, moral values contradict Evolution, i.e. "if I like your wife, why can't I just take your head off and drag her back to my cave?" (just to give a simple, quite horrific example) That is not quite correct - the 'fittest' in evolution is not necessarily the individual! And 'fit' can also be a trait like cooperation - wolves hunt in packs => more success (food) for everybody than individual hunting. Buffalos herd together for protection => more success of survival for the species. Thus the development of moral values to strengthen cohesion and the survival of the group can very well be something more fit than... But that would only apply to their own little pack, they wouldn't extend those "values" towards other little packs... There is such thing as parallel evolution... But that was not the point - that was that you said moral values are contradictory to evolution, which I dissent on. The development of moral values can be a trait which benefits evolution, as it at least helps towards the survival of the species by making it more successful than others who have none. It's certainly not a single salient factor in the complexity of evolution of the mind, but not one to completely deny. |
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Post by twoheadedragon on Oct 14, 2009 10:11:27 GMT
@uberil - I believe that if you looked at the original lists of the 7 deadly sins the pride one would actually say - Being prideful is a sin, not pride is a sin. I still find it intresting that murder is considered a deadly sin, but (according to the christian bible) killing is against the 4th commandment. That would be the 6th commandment. The 4th was to "remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy." |
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Post by twoheadedragon on Oct 14, 2009 10:13:59 GMT
Of COURSE the purpose of life has to extend beyond the "now!" If we just live this life and die, we are no better off than the vegetables we eat. I wonder, why do you always associate eternal life with selfishness? What's the matter, can't come to terms with the way you've lived your life? Don't worry, I don't think any of us can truly come to terms with that... EDT: Which is why we need to be saved by grace! For the record , I ve lived a pretty stable life. Married for ten years , two kids , living in the same place for ten years , never been one to be destructive , not had many sexual partners , just sort of boring really , so no , nothing like that. I equate eternal life with selfishness , because to me thats all that it is. You are saying that without the prospect of your own reward , life is meaningless, I find that a selfish thing. I didn't say that, I said that without an afterlife, life is extremely short, and in a way pointless, since there's nothing after this life. If there's no judgement of your sins in an afterlife (since there's no afterlife at all), you might as well just life a destructive, selfish life. Nay, I equate NO afterlife as selfishness! |
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) with no sense of "right" or "wrong," as that cannot have evolved but had to have been "placed" there in our minds...
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