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Post by Ubereil on Oct 26, 2009 21:40:22 GMT
Doing something to deliberately destabilise the country IS. There's a difference between doing something that destabilises the country and doing something to deliberately destabilise the country. If you read the article, Labour were doing the former. It's only your own bias against them that's telling you they're doing the latter. In 2004(ish) the George Bush administration got an offer from Iran where they said they'd do pretty much everything the Obama administration is trying to get them to do now. Cheney Bush drew the conclusion that this meant Iran was weak and declined. That's not treason, that's just incredibly stupid. Oh, and that mass migration has been good for Britain is just this guy's opinion. You won't find too many people who share it. I wouldn't expect anything else. After all, we're in the middle of an economic crisis. Blaming them foreigners is kind of default human behaviour in these circumstances. Which isn't saying that everyone that claims there are some kind of backside are closet racists. No, I'm just saying most pepole are. *Übereil puts up two points on himself for proving why everyone who disagrees with him are indeed racists. The term ad hominem drifts through his head, trying to get some kind of hold.* Übereil
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Post by Terrordar on Oct 26, 2009 21:53:03 GMT
The UK's government's biggest problem is its people
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Post by ss on Oct 26, 2009 23:16:13 GMT
Ya'll wanta see some immigration problems, come to the good ole USA....especially illegals...we got MILLIONS AND MILLIONS..
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Post by Elliot Kane on Oct 26, 2009 23:22:24 GMT
Actually, Ube, in this one I'm biased in their favour. I really do not WANT to believe ANY senior members of the UK govt would commit treason. But the facts of the case are very much against what I want to be true.
Bush may have been stupid, but at NO time did he deliberately seek to destabilise his OWN country. I disagree with a lot of what he did, as you know, but making a bad decision is not treason. Making a decision every American might (Or might not) disagree with is a matter of political opinion, not treason.
But making a deliberate policy where the consequences are both obviously and inevitably destructive and then sticking to that policy for a decade goes a bit beyond making a single stupid decision, don't you think?
***
In some ways, Terror, you are right! And thanks for making me laugh. I needed that! ;D
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Post by Ubereil on Oct 27, 2009 8:45:26 GMT
Actually, Ube, in this one I'm biased in their favour. I really do not WANT to believe ANY senior members of the UK govt would commit treason. But the facts of the case are very much against what I want to be true. The problem isn't that you want to see Labour as traitors, it's that as soon as they do something you assume that they're idiots, so somehow they have to have screwed up this time as well. You always thinks the worst of them. An example: Bush may have been stupid, but at NO time did he deliberately seek to destabilise his OWN country. If you read between the line in this sentence you're saying Labour deliberately seeked to destabilise Great Brittain. They didn't start accepting three times as many immigrants into the country because of the benefits of said course, they did it because of the disadvantages. All because they're... I don't know... Germans in discuise? When it comes to Labour you're as bad as Kilgore (no offence Kilgore ). You're seeing things that just aren't there. But making a deliberate policy where the consequences are both obviously and inevitably destructive and then sticking to that policy for a decade goes a bit beyond making a single stupid decision, don't you think? So basically, they're incompetent rather than stupid? Why did they do it? They did it based on a report by the Performance and Innovation Unit, Tony Blair's Cabinet Office think-tank (says the article anyway). I'm pretty sure that report didn't come to the conclusion that immigration is "both obviously and inevitably destructive". The article speaks about what a major move this was. Moves like that are a major commitment. When you admit that a major commitment like that failed you look bad (to most pepole. Personally I think it's strong to retake a policy that isn't working sorely for this reason). Therefore it's better to pretend that everything's working fine. Which appears to be what Labour have been doing. Or is it? The guy in the article talks about all the positives of the new immigration policy. To him it's not obvious that immigration have been destructive to the UK, far from it. He thinks you're better off with it. Maybe Labour agrees with him? In conclusion, they started it because they didn't see mass immigration as obviously and inevitably destructive and they continued to do it because they saw the positive effects of it and they thought it outweighted the bad (or, at most, wasn't bad enough to rework). Incompetence? I can buy that. But treason? Get outta here... Übereil
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Post by Elliot Kane on Oct 27, 2009 10:51:00 GMT
They're stupid AND incompetent. Their entire record speaks for itself on that one. In every field of govt, time after time, they have demonstrated nothing but ineptitude. I never thought anything more of it than that, though. Until now.
And you don't need to read between any lines. I've said several times already that that article basically accuses them of deliberately plotting to destabilise Britain.
And to pick you up on something: immigration is not destructive. Controlled immigration is a GOOD thing, because it brings in new ideas, new blood to the gene pool and in a growing nation helps the economy. UNCONTROLLED mass immigration is something else. Uncontrolled mass immigration where the figures are massaged severely to get them down and it's STILL at 150,000 a year is vastly too much.
As for their 'study' - it's not even credible that anyone discussed mass immigration without asking a few simple questions, such as 'do we have the infrastructure to cope?' and 'can we provide housing and employment for the people we want to bring in?'
No. I'd love to believe you, Ube (And I do thank you for trying!), but I don't believe there's anyone in the world who is as stupid as the entire upper echelons of the Labour govt would have to be for this to be to be mere incompetence.
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Post by Dark Phoenix Rising on Oct 27, 2009 11:21:31 GMT
There are 3 points to the immigration story that need to be considered 1) europeans can come and go as they please, and there's nowt we can do to stop them due to EU laws. 2) immigration from outside the EU is controlled, and while the controls may have been loosened for a few years, there were still controls. 3) Tourism provides a large amount of money for our country and so we can't afford to be picky about who gets a tourist visa.
All of the above make it VERY difficult for any organisation to keep a handle on who comes and goes into our country.
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Post by Dark Phoenix Rising on Oct 27, 2009 11:24:27 GMT
Actually This would be one of the benefits of Londons education system, council estates, ever stricter child protection laws (which make running youth clubs ever more difficult), drug running, and general disenfranchisment of the young people of today. As most of the people in the gangs you're talking about have been born in this country, and lived here all their lives.
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Post by Elliot Kane on Oct 27, 2009 11:28:30 GMT
The description as 'Turkish gangs' doesn't make it sound like that, DPR. Not that we don't have a lot of problems with gangs who were born and raised here, too, of course. Been some real hair-raising stuff in the papers about that, recently...
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Post by Glance A'Lot on Oct 27, 2009 17:13:36 GMT
With all that - why would anyone WANT to immigrate to the UK?
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Post by Elliot Kane on Oct 27, 2009 17:24:25 GMT
It's a darned good question, Glance. Baffles the heck out of me, these days.
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Post by The Sonar Chicken on Oct 27, 2009 17:30:14 GMT
Probably 'cos they're seeking more opportunities and have been sold a completely different picture(one that runs contrary to reality)?
It's that way here too and 'cos of that, Singapore IS getting a very very bad rep.
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Post by Ubereil on Oct 27, 2009 18:40:00 GMT
And you don't need to read between any lines. I've said several times already that that article basically accuses them of deliberately plotting to destabilise Britain. No. The article says they opened up the borders because they thought it would be good for the country. It doesn't say they opened up the borders in order to destabilise the country. As for their 'study' - it's not even credible that anyone discussed mass immigration without asking a few simple questions, such as 'do we have the infrastructure to cope?' and 'can we provide housing and employment for the people we want to bring in?' I don't know if you're aware of this, but there's a difference between being incompetent and destroying something on purpouse. I'd love to believe you, Ube Not as much as you love to believe Labour are destroying the country on purpouse... ...but I don't believe there's anyone in the world who is as stupid as the entire upper echelons of the Labour govt would have to be for this to be to be mere incompetence. Sweden's doing it too. All of our politicians, exept our verision of the BNP, are in favour of immigration. That our National Migration Board celebrates with cake when they manage to kick somebody out is another matter. ******************************* Try this: Are Tories accusing Labour of treason? If the answer is 'no', then it probably isn't a question of treason. Because Tories would LOVE to accuse Labour of treason. It would pretty much guarantee that they'd win the next election if they did that and had a case. And if there's one thing politicians care about it's winning elections. Übereil
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Post by Elliot Kane on Oct 27, 2009 19:28:07 GMT
The Tories have missed virtually every major opportunity they've had to kick Labour in recent years, actually. Unusual as it sounds for a political party, they seem to shy away from landing some real and solid blows. Mainly because they are terrified of being called 'The Nasty Party' again, I suspect.
What can you honestly say about a party that, faced with the absolute unpopularity of the Iraq war at the last election, boldly stated, "Oh, well, we'd have done the exact same thing that Tony Blair did!" This is NOT a party with very good political instincts.
There's a reason they've been out of power for the last 12 years. And honestly, it's most unlikely they'd win the next election if Labour had not hacked off just about everyone. The Tories are still not popular and few people really trust them. They just hate Labour more.
Personally, I'm undecided who the heck I'm going to vote for. It won't be Labour or BNP, but beyond that... I dunno.
***
EDIT: and lest we forget the caveat, the few people in the Labour party who MIGHT be guilty of treason would only BE guilty of such IF these allegations are true.
I'm still honestly hoping they're not.
But I think there needs to be an official enquiry. These kind of allegations are far too serious to ignore.
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Post by Ubereil on Oct 27, 2009 20:21:18 GMT
What can you honestly say about a party that, faced with the absolute unpopularity of the Iraq war at the last election, boldly stated, "Oh, well, we'd have done the exact same thing that Tony Blair did!" This is NOT a party with very good political instincts. At least they're honest. The question is wether they're honest and stupid or honest with integrity. Übereil
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Post by Elliot Kane on Oct 27, 2009 21:19:19 GMT
Well, Neville Chamberlain was totally honest and had complete integrity... It doesn't always help, in politics! ;D
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Post by Elliot Kane on Oct 27, 2009 21:40:07 GMT
Labour MP Frank Field on the immigration/over-population debate:
(And for the record, if Frank was my local MP, I'd unhesitatingly vote Labour. He's one of the best people in the House, from any party)
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Post by The Sonar Chicken on Nov 3, 2009 0:02:06 GMT
So... I'm confused: so what exactly is going on in the UK then?
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Post by Elliot Kane on Nov 5, 2009 13:49:21 GMT
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Post by The Sonar Chicken on Nov 5, 2009 15:32:08 GMT
Things sound really really terrible in the UK, man. Suddenly, I don't think I want to live there anymore. ;D
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