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Post by Terrordar on Dec 11, 2009 20:12:06 GMT
I don't think we need empathy with these people.
I don't need to empathize with a perspective based on fantasy. Often violent fantasy at that with self-glorification, sexism, and racism.
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Post by kitty on Dec 12, 2009 3:31:52 GMT
I'm shocked that I kinda have to agree with Terre.
When the West can't handle the religious perspectives and the islamic countries can not handle the wordly stuff - where is the place to move to where people base their decisions on science, knowledge and reason? Cause I really want to move there.
But fun aside, how come the muslimic people have the strong urge to demonstrate that they believe in what they believe, when they could just believe? I ask the same to any other religion.
And with fearing people and their intentions, maybe we (the West) just fueling them, with show open distrust, maybe they pick up on that and make it their reason for getting radical and not so very peace-loving anymore.
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Post by Elliot Kane on Dec 12, 2009 4:19:53 GMT
Fundamentalism rises from inadequacy and insecurity. It's notable that when Islam was at its strongest as a world religion it was also at its most tolerant. But the decline of Islamic civilisation has left the Muslim nations feeling completely overshadowed and the result is a loss of perceived power.
As you've doubtless observed, anyone who truly feels they have power doesn't need to use it. That's true of nations and cultures as well as people. Perception is everything here, of course, and the more powerless anything feels the more it tries to throw its weight around as a result.
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Post by Terrordar on Dec 12, 2009 6:35:29 GMT
What EK also forgets to mention that these Islamic Empires were run by turks, who have ALWAYS had a strong sense of secularism, from the Sejucks to Ottoman Empire to modern day Turkey. And even today, fundamentalism is even on the rise in Turkey. Murder of Apostates is being reported there, which is outrageous. Islam is a giant turd of a religion. Even when standing next to a turd like Christianity. www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnojzLibk94&feature=relatedShe converted to the wrong religion. |
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Post by Elliot Kane on Dec 12, 2009 8:40:26 GMT
Mostly the Turks, granted. The Abassid Caliphate was one of very few that was not (Controlled the top part of Africa & Muslim Spain, IIRC - though that's from memory and may not be 100% accurate).
There were one or two others who were not Turks/Ottomans, IIRC. But generally speaking the sign of a strong Islamic empire is usually whether the Turks are in charge or not. They just seem to be better at it than the non-Turkic and non-Persian peoples.
(Forgot the Moguls - the rulers of India, prior to the British Empire arriving. They were Muslims, too)
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Post by Terrordar on Dec 12, 2009 11:04:58 GMT
The Moguls also come from Timur the Lame (in the long run anyway >.>), who butchered millions in the name of Allah.
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Post by janggut on Dec 12, 2009 14:10:33 GMT
i feel that Christianity became more tolerant when separation of the church & state happened. it was under the monopoly of the selected few, the Holy See in Rome & (almost) absolute power was with them. when faith is separated from politics, it could not help but to be at its very basic - a religion or faith, pure & simple.
doctrines aside, Christianity's concern is with the afterlife & the consequences of one's way of living that affects afterlife. thus salvation through Christ.
Islam, however, has more concerns on life now, on earth. thus the banking system, laws, punishments etc. the way Islam is set up, it is politics as it is religion. can the two be separated? what is Islam if its material way of living is separated from its spiritual one?
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Post by Elliot Kane on Dec 12, 2009 17:39:44 GMT
The same could be said of Christianity in Medieval times, though, Jang, when it was very much tied up with politics, power and temporal authority.
I think you are right that what ultimately makes the difference is separating religion from the state. As Terror said earlier, the most successful Islamic nations, like the most successful Christian ones, have been more secular.
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Post by ss on Dec 13, 2009 0:12:16 GMT
I don't think we need empathy with these people. I don't need to empathize with a perspective based on fantasy. Often violent fantasy at that with self-glorification, sexism, and racism. I really hate to admit that I find myself consistently agreeing with TD (Except his wrong headed views of Christianity of course..) ;D I believe most people either don’t understand or have forgotten..(or never knew).. just what is the FINAL aim of Islam. If you are going to deal with Islam, you had better get hold of a complete NEW mind-set... “Islam” means “submission.” The ULTIMATE aim of Islam is to make one “umma” of the people of the world, an Islamic people in submission to Allah. Islam sees the world as being divided into two parts. That which is “in submission” is called Dar-al-Salaam (House of Peace) and that which is not yet in submission is called Dar-al-Harb (House of War). To put it another way, those of us in the West who have not yet been brought into “submission” are subject to JIHAD. This term doesn't simply mean the subjection of all us unbelievers to some kind of violent confrontation…Jihad implies everything which furthers the cause of Allah. The "House of Peace" is only established when and where Islam has become the state religion and the "sharia" controls all aspects of life. The world-view of Islam is linked to their concept of God. The nations which refuse the demands of Allah or resist the Islamic rule being established are called "house of War" There is nothing outside of Allah's power, so whatever is not given to him willingly must be brought into subjection to him using other mehtods, such as economic pressure or revolutionary power struggle. (holy war) Again, Islam means submission to Allah (or whoever is in charge at the moment..  ) and this submission means handing over every aspect of your life to his spirit....AND...accepting the authority of the Qur'an over all thought, behaviour and morality. This way of thinking must become a reality for the whole world. Islam is like a "jauggernaut"..it just keeps on coming..year after year, and century after century...it may be knocked back and not get up for years...or until someone like Khomeini mesmerises a following and the war is back on... Europe has only got the "Grace of God" to thank for the fact that on two different times in the past she has been saved from Islamic domination. The new thrust (to a wide open "Political Correct" Europe) has been going on since Khomeini's 70's revolution... Figures from the Archives of the Central Institute for Islamic Affairs in Germany around 1987 said that the number of Muslims in Germany, about 1.7 million, would be 2.2 million by 2000, and that by the end of the century 33.8 percent of the world's population would be followers of Islam. It is 2010...just how many immigrants do you think Europe (or America) now has.  ?? and a more interesting question, concerning the Mosques....We (westerners) allow them to build their Mosques, but name me even ONE exclusively Islamic nation that allows even ONE Christian Church to be built in that country. ??...none....remember, we are the "house of war", and as such must be erradicated.....or brought into "submission" You may think this is Islamaphobia, but it is not, it is realism and whether you like it or not, it IS, REPEAT, IS, exactly what they believe and are trying to accomplish....BY WHATEVER MEANS WORKS... But....We will have to fight...eventually...or be consumed...sorry to have to break it to you...but TD is correct...to empathize with them will eventually mean your demise.....  |
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Post by janggut on Dec 13, 2009 2:40:58 GMT
@ EK -> that's what i was getting at. yeah, Christianity was like Islam now, forcing people to accept & accept the approved version or face execution.
@ ss -> reminds me of the story of a man & his camel in his tent. the dude got pushed out by his camel in the end.
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Post by ss on Dec 19, 2009 21:37:44 GMT
@ ss -> reminds me of the story of a man & his camel in his tent. the dude got pushed out by his camel in the end. ;D ..Funny you should use that example Jang... It is quite possibly truer than most think...if this video is (IF) then it might also be SOONER than one thinks... www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysBJ5G4m67s |
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) and this submission means handing over every aspect of your life to his spirit....AND...accepting the authority of the Qur'an over all thought, behaviour and morality. This way of thinking must become a reality for the whole world.
?? and a more interesting question, concerning the Mosques....We (westerners) allow them to build their Mosques, but name me even ONE exclusively Islamic nation that allows even ONE Christian Church to be built in that country.