The future of American Textbooks?

[SPS]

Could this be the future of American Textbooks?

I really really hope that this does not pass. The fact that textbooks can be politicized, and influence our potential children, scares me to death. No Perot? I'm sorry but that happened 20 years ago and you lost. Get over it. Also Joe McCarthy should not be celebrated. He should be mentioned as the guy who created modern witch hunts and that should be it.

[Ubereil]

As cliché as it might sound someone ought to tell these guys about Nazi Germany.

Übereil

[Elliot Kane]

Be better to get them to read 1984, which is one of very few books that I think should be on every syllabus in the world. Orwell points out all the warning signs brilliantly - the attempts to warp and manipulate language and the attempts to rewrite history to suit the writer. Anyone doing those things is a danger to be dealt with - an enemy of all humanity.

[Glance A'Lot]

...questioning the Founding Fathers’ commitment to a purely secular government...

Wouldn't that be unconstitutional and thus be subject to a potential Supreme Court overruling verdict?

Or is the separation not explicitly stated? But then neither would be the contrary?

In a dicussion between state (government) and 'church' separation in the USA, I'd be tempted to ask "Which (of the many) churches?"

[ss]

Mar 16, 2010 3:50:43 GMT SPS said:

Could this be the future of American Textbooks?

I really really hope that this does not pass. The fact that textbooks can be politicized, and influence our potential children, scares me to death. No Perot? I'm sorry but that happened 20 years ago and you lost. Get over it. Also Joe McCarthy should not be celebrated. He should be mentioned as the guy who created modern witch hunts and that should be it.

I for one think it is long.....long....overdue...

How you equate it to McCarthy is puzzeling to me, but revisionist history has been the rule for the last 35-40 years...in the opposite direction..

@ube...Nazi Germany.? get a life...

@ EK...although I agree with 1984's warnings..I do believe that the "witch hunt" is from the "left" in this issue..

@ Glance...concur...

@ everyone...

There IS NO SUCH THING in the U.S. Constitution as "the separation of church and state"....it doesn't exist...I challenge anyone on the face of this planet to show me such a statement or even a proper application of ANY statement in the constitution...

The founding fathers, for all practicality, WERE Christians of some denomination of a church, prayed at all their meetings for the guidance of God, believed in the Creator of the universe, etc....

EVERY...repeat...EVERY State of the original 13's (and I think all 50 in fact) constitution DECLARES, in good English language, that they were built on the principles of the benevolent God of the Bible... Has anyone read any of them??

And...the Hispanic rep that went haywire....does she honestly think that the State of Texas (especially Texas) thinks that America is made up of whites only...that is ROFL... I'm sure texans are unaware of hispanics...

I personally have read the textbooks my son is using in college and my grandchildren are using in grade school and THAT is what scare me to death...they have swung so far to the left that no-one (that is no-one that ever saw anything different) can even recognize US history at all....that is sad....

we call it the dumbing down of America...it will be to our demise.

[ss]

Oh heck, why not..ALL 50..Read them and tell me what you think

Ya think the ACLU and the insane Federal court is simply wrong and blatantly LYING to you..??...and as that "ungodly man William Penn (yes..Pennsylvania) said "Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants."

Alabama 1901 , Preamble . We the people of the
State of Alabama , invoking the favor and guidance
of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the
following Constitu tion.

Alaska 1956, Preamble . We, the people of Alaska ,
grateful to God and to those who founded our nation
and pioneered this great land.

Arizona 1911, Preamble . We, the people of the
State of Arizona , grateful to Almighty God for our
liberties, do ordain this Constitution...

Arkansas 1874, Preamble . We, the people of the
State of Arkansas , grateful to Almighty God for
the privilege of choosing our own form of
government...

California 1879, Preamble . We, the People of the
State of California , grateful
to Almighty God for our freedom.

Colorado 1876, Preamble . We, the people of
Colorado , with profound reverence for the Supreme
Ruler of Universe.

Connecticut 1818, Preamble . The People of
Connecticut, acknowledging with gratitude the good
Providence of God in permitting them to enjoy.

Delaware 1897, Preamble . Through Divine Goodness
all men have, by nature, the rights of worshipping
and serving their Creator according to the dictates
of their consciences.

Florida 1885, Preamble . We, the people of the
State of Florida , grateful to Almighty God for our
constitutional liberty, establish this Constitution...

Georgia 1777, Preamble . We, the people of Georgia,
relying upon protection and guidance of Almighty
God, do ordain and establish this Constitution...

Hawaii 1959, Preamble . We , the people of Hawaii ,
Grateful for Divine Guidance ... Establish this
Constitution.

Idaho 1889, Preamble . We, the people of the State
of Idaho , grateful to Almighty God for our
freedom, to secure its blessings.

Illinois 1870, Preamble . We, the people of the
State of Illinois, grateful to Almighty God for the
civil, political and religious liberty which He
hath so long permitted us to enjoy and looking to
Him for a blessing on our endeavors.

Indiana 1851, Preamble . We, the People of the
State of Indiana , grateful to Almighty God for the
free exercise of the right to choose our form of
government.

Iowa 1857, Preamble . We, the People of the State
of Iowa , grateful to the Supreme Being for the
blessings hitherto enjoyed, and feeling our
dependence on Him for a continuation of these
blessings establish this Constitution.

Kansas 1859, Preamble . We, the people of Kansas ,
grateful to Alm ighty God for our civil and
religious privileges establish this Constitution.

Kentucky 1891, Preamble . We, the people of the
Commonwealth are grateful to Almighty God for the
civil, political and religious liberties...

Louisiana 1921, Preamble . We, the people of the
State of Louisiana , grateful to Almighty God for
the civil, political and religious liberties we
enjoy.

Maine 1820, Preamble . We the People of Maine
acknowledging with grateful hearts the goodness of
the Sovereign Ruler of the Universe in affording us
an opportunity ... And imploring His aid and
direction.

Maryland 1776, Preamble . We, the people of the
state of Maryland , grateful to Almighty God for
our civil and religious liberty...

Massachusetts 1780, Preamble . We...the people of
Massachusetts , acknowledging with grateful hearts,
the goodness of the Great Legislator of the
Universe .. In the course of His Providence , an
opportunity and devoutly imploring His direction .

Michigan 1908, Preamble . We, the people of the
State of Michigan , grateful to Almighty God for
the blessings of freedom establish this Constitution.

Minnesota , 1857, Preamble . We, the people of the
State of Minnesota, grateful to God for our civil
and religious liberty, and desiring to perpetuate
its blessings:

Mississippi 1890, Preamble . We, the people of
Mississippi in convention assembled, grateful to Al
mighty God, and invoking His blessing on our work.

Missouri 1845, Preamble . We, the people of
Missouri , with profound reverence for the Supreme
Ruler of the Universe, and grateful for His
goodness .. Establish this Constitution

Montana 1889, Preamble. We, t he people of Montana,
grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of
liberty establish this Constitution ..

Nebraska 1875, Preamble . We, the people, grateful
to Almighty God for our freedom .. Establish this
Constitution.

Nevada 1864, Preamble . We the people of the State
of Nevada , grateful to Almighty God for our
freedom establish this Constitution

New Hampshire 1792, Part I. Art. I. Sec. V .
Every individual has a natural and unalienable
right to worship God according to the dictates of
his own conscience.

New Jersey 1844, Preamble . We, the people of the
State of New Jersey, grateful to Almighty God for
civil and religious liberty which He hath so long
permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a
blessing on our endeavors.

New Mexico 1911, Preamble . We, the People of New
Mexico , grateful to Almighty God for the blessings
of liberty

New York 1846, Preamble . We, the people of the
State of New York , grateful to Almighty God for
our freedom, in order to secure its blessings.

North Carolina 1868, Preamble . We the people of
the State of North Carolina, grateful to Almighty
God, the Sovereign Ruler of Nations, for our civil,
political, and religious liberties, and
acknowledging our dependence upon Him for the
continuance of those

North Dakota 1889, Preamble . We , the people of
North Dakota , grateful to Almighty God for the
blessings of civil and religious liberty, do
ordain...

Ohio 1852, Preamble . We the people of the state
of Ohio , grateful to Almighty God for our freedom,
to secure its blessings and to promote our common

Oklahoma 1907, Preamble . Invoking the guidance of
Almi ghty God, in order to secure and perpetuate the
blessings of liberty ... establish this

Oregon 1857, Bill of Rights, Article I. Section
2. All men shall be secure in the Natural right, to
worship Almighty God according to the dictates of
their consciences..

Pennsylvania 1776, Preamble We, the people of
Pennsylvania , grateful to Almighty God for the
blessings of civil and religious liberty, and
humbly invoking His guidance

Rhode Island 1842, Preamble. We the People of the
State of Rhode Island grateful to Almighty God for
the civil and religious liberty which He hath so
long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for
a blessing

South Carolina , 1778, Preamble . We, the people
of he State of South Carolina grateful to God for
our liberties, do ordain and establish this
Constitution.

South Dakota 1889, Preamble . We, the people of
South Dakota , grateful to Almighty God for our
civil and religious liberties

Tennessee 1796, Art. XI.III. That all men have a
natural and indefeasible right to worship Almighty
God according to the dictates of their
conscience...

Texas 1845, Preamble . We the People of the
Republic of Texas , acknowledging, with
gratitude, the grace and beneficence of God.

Utah 1896, Preamble . Grateful to Almighty God for
life and liberty, we establish this Constitution.

Vermont 1777, Preamble . Whereas all government
ought to enable the individuals who compose it to
enjoy their natural rights, and other blessings
which the Author of Existence has bestowed on man

Virginia 1776, Bill of Rights, XVI Religion, or
the Duty which we owe our Creator can be directed
only by Reason and that it is the mutual duty of
all to practice Christian Forbearance, Love and
Charity towards each other

Washington 1889, Preamble . We the People of the
State of Washington , grateful to the Supreme Ruler
of the Universe for our liberties, do ordain this
Constitution

West Virginia 1872, Preamble . Since through
Divine Providence we enjoy the blessings of civil,
political and religious liberty, we, the people of
West Virginia reaffirm our faith in and constant
reliance upon God ..

Wisconsin 1848, Preamble . We, the people of
Wisconsin , grateful to Almighty God for our
freedom, domestic tranquility

Wyoming 1890, Preamble . We, the people of the
State of Wyoming , grateful to God for our civil,
political, and religious liberties . establish this
Constitution.

Please note that in none of the Preambles is anyone
told they MUST worship God .

[Elliot Kane]

ss - hence my inclusion of the language thing: a clear shot at Political Correctness...

[SPS]

ss-One of the things they mention is a celebration of McCarthy's works.

[Terrordar]

I fully support Church and State being closer together, one entity even. I hope America can go a little further towards living the kind of Life that puts the fear of God in anyone. I want schools which deny science. I want history that is to be rewritten, and by Golly I want some god damn budgets for the military, those Yanks aren't spending enough yet damn it.

Not only that, with the new theocratic government, people can really be free. Of course people who don't believe would be restrained from practicing publically, but that is a small price to pay to keep the belief of god fresh in the kids' minds. When the President addresses the public he needs to talk about god more than policy, because policy doesn't matter, your soul does. And what's with these crazy people who wanna express themselves against the obviously true and undeniable faith of god? What the hell is that? I'll tell you what that is, its a witch burning waiting to happen! Those unbelievers, how dare they ask that public policy be kept separate from religious entities! How dare Muslims, Jews, Atheists, Hindus, Pagans, Shieks, Buddhists and heretical church denominations like those fake Christians known as Catholics and Orthodox Christrians, how DARE they ask to keep the power of the church out of their lives. How dare they ask to keep their money out of a faith-based organization in which they don't subscribe.

God will have a stern talking to them all in the future. After we burn them.






Guess what Schutzstaffel, nations which have the church and the state united, are run by [Censored]ing [Censored]s, who exploit people, and inevitably crush the rights of the minority religions. They inevitably exploit women and children. They inevitably take freedom away from other people. That textbook SPS is talking about, someone whose name isn't ironically linked to the Nazi elite and Hitler's bodyguard, fittingly enough, is taking out Thomas Jefferson. Thomas Jefferson, the man who wrote the bloody [Censored]ing constitution, the man who was the 3rd president of the United States and repeatedly insisted that Church and State powers be removed from one another in order to keep things fair for everyone. "In God We Trust" was not originally on the dollar, the pledge of allegiance is newer than the nation too (post Jefferson).

Yes, Texas says he's not important enough.

You know what I say? Texas is a [Censored]ing shithole. Its run by religious nuts, and its the bottom [Censored]ing end of a dirty ass in the southern reaches of the western world.

[Ubereil]

Mar 16, 2010 23:17:49 GMT ss said:

@ube...Nazi Germany.? get a life...

You're kidding, I assume. Rewriting the school books to fit the leading goverment was one of Hitler's main tools to dope pepole into buying into his politics.

Propaganda is bad. Propaganda in school is extra bad, since children are more receptive to the propaganda.

Mar 16, 2010 23:17:49 GMT ss said:

There IS NO SUCH THING in the U.S. Constitution as "the separation of church and state"....it doesn't exist...I challenge anyone on the face of this planet to show me such a statement or even a proper application of ANY statement in the constitution...

Well, then why does everyone see the first amendment as saying 1) The US should establish no state religion and 2) the US shouldn't favor any religion?

Besides, if there is no separation of church and state then you need to establish it. I don't get you constitutional purists who thinks the constitution is the Infallible Word of God. It was written by humans, and humans makes mistakes. As seen with the whole slavery thing. If pepole can use a constitution to justify slavery (and pepole obviously could) then the constitution is flawed.

I think the same goes for a constitution you can use to motivate favoring of one rule over another, especially since the writer of that specific rule quite obviously was against that kind of practise and had designed the thing specifically to not allow that kind of thing.

Mar 16, 2010 23:17:49 GMT ss said:

The founding fathers, for all practicality, WERE Christians of some denomination of a church, prayed at all their meetings for the guidance of God, believed in the Creator of the universe, etc....

Even if that is true (and I've seen plenty of quotes pinning founding fathers as non-Christians), why does it matter? Separation of church and state isn't about politicians being seculars, it's about politicians not favoring one religion over another in law by ignoring religion entirely when making laws.

I read a very convincing article as to why we should abolish the freedom of religion in Sweden, by the way. You see, that law is entirely unecesary since it's already covered by other laws, like freedom of speech and freedom of thought. Just a side note, that.

Mar 16, 2010 23:17:49 GMT ss said:

I personally have read the textbooks my son is using in college and my grandchildren are using in grade school and THAT is what scare me to death...they have swung so far to the left that no-one (that is no-one that ever saw anything different) can even recognize US history at all....that is sad....

Well... reality has a liberal bias. ;D Seriously though, feel free to give examples of this swing to the left.

Übereil

[Elliot Kane]

America's biggest political problem right now is actually a very bizarre one, which I'm not sure I've seen in a nation that has secular govt: both parties and their followers are at daggers drawn, utterly hating on each other and determined to destroy each other with no recognition that both sides are Americans and both sides want what they sincerely believe is best for their country.

This fierce and uncompromising tribalism causes everything to be seen as a battleground, including (and perhaps especially) education. Both sides love warping the truth to suit their own agendas (Ube, Google 'Afrocentrism' for the best example of what you are seeking, though any form of Political Correctness will do) regardless of truth and regardless of the cost to the American people.

For the good of America, the leaders of both sides need to find common ground before they tear their country apart. Fact rather than any political agenda must be allowed to dominate education and it must be admitted that others can have the best of motives while still being wrong ('Wrong' frequently being a matter of opinion, after all...).

[Ubereil]

You get no objections from me there, Elliot*. I believe it's cooled down a little since last year, but America is still far too polarized for it's own good. Still, that California (and others) defined marriage as taking place only between a man and a woman can't really be justified by anything but religion, and when things like that are happening you've got a problem. That the boat is taking in water because of that hole in the hull might be the major problem, but the jammed steering wheel is still not optimal, so to speak.

* Apart from 'wrong' being a matter of oppinion. Objective truth exists, and that in itself means means there is a 'right' in each situation. I'd agree to it not being all that obvious what's right and what's wrong though, and that different pepole can both be justified in believing opposite things. It's not that both sides are right, it's just that the wrong side (whichever it is) have just made a honest mistake (and sometimes, a not so honest one...).

Übereil

[Dark Phoenix Rising]

I'd disagree that objective truth exists, as truth is just an interpretation of the facts. e.g.

The police have received 2 conflicting reports about a shop lifter in a local electronics store, the first one came from a customer and goes something like.

At around 10am I saw a man dressed in scruffy jeans and an iron maiden t-shirt, after chatting to the staff about something he looked around to see if there was anyone around, and then put a couple of ipods into a backpack and walked out, past a couple of delivery guys.

The second report goes something like

The owner of the store has reported a couple of shop lifters who walked in and stole a couple of high value Plasma TV's. The estimated time of the theft was around 10am and it only became apparent when the real delivery agents turned up 1/2 hour later due to traffic.

[Elliot Kane]

Objective truth rarely exists when it comes to human made systems, Ube, for the simple reason that humans create their social attitudes/morals/ethics, etc, to suit a particular set of environmental circumstances, then believe in those things for as long as it is useful to do so, then for as long as inertia can carry them. Need creates 'truth', as it were, then custom preserves it. Not a lot of truth to be found in a concept that is imaginary at the best of times.

[Ubereil]

Well, there are two kinds of facts. One is natural facts, which are facts regarding what is. For instance, you are a human being. This is a picture of a tree. There are aproximately 4.5 billion pepole in the world right now. These facts constitutes a truth of sort, and this truth is definently objective. Whatever we see when we look at something, we see that something and that something exists regardless of what we see.

There are also moral facts, which are facts of what we ought to do. For instance it might be a moral fact that killing is wrong. I say might because we, humans can't really tell what the moral facts are or if there even exists any moral facts in the first place (as laid out by this David Hume dude).

You could say that everyone's view on moral facts are nothing but opinion. If you did I'd say that even though you have a point you're still wrong. But natural reality isn't relative. At most our view of natural reality is relative, but that doesn't mean the reality itself is.

Though I believe the whole source of this one argument is that we mean different things when we say "truth".

Übereil

[Elliot Kane]

Morals are a matter of Consensual or Subjective Reality. They have no actual existence outside of the minds of people. They are either an agreed upon definition of 'right' and 'wrong' or a personal definition of 'right' and 'wrong'.

You could point to a moral or ethic and say "This is a standard moral/ethic for Society X in Location Y at Time Z" and that would be true. But you could never point to any moral or ethic and say "This is an Objective truth." Not without being wrong, at least! ;D

[Glance A'Lot]

This fierce and uncompromising tribalism...

uncompromising - as if a compromise would be something inherently bad, instead of a key to (social) functioning of any groups.

In a world of conflicting interests nothing is achieved without compromise. While one shouldn't (have to) accept 'foul' compromises, one also shouldn't treat a compromise as a 'battle lost'.

I believe a lot is due to the 'selling' of achievements to the general public - not the least by the media. The 'who didn't get what' gets greater visibilty than the 'how big is the smallest common factor' achieved.

[Glance A'Lot]

On a more general note - as the view on history changes, by new factual information found as much as by revised interpretations, I find the periodic review of textbooks principally a good thing (and every 10 years a reasonable period nowadays).

The question to me is rather who does and decides on these reviews.
Politicians do not seem optimal to me as they are too much focused on purely contemporary aspects (like to being reelected).

The same is also true for the basic question of WHAT should be taught, beyond history. Here my general plea would be to focus not on specific themes alone, but on how to get information, and how to analyse, question and interpret information.

Also I see a horrendous decline in what I would consider should be 'general knowledge'. In geography they teach the average rainfalls in the Congo basin twenty years ago - but somehow fail to teach where that basin is.
A lot of younger people I met - not only in Germany - don't even know the general geograpy of their home country, far less the disrtribution of the continents and oceans over the globe. (Granted, the question, "What countries your nation has borders with?" is easier answered by a Canadian than a German... (It's 9, btw) )

In something as unpolitic as mathematics, the calculation of percentages is given less importance than the rotation of integrals over the y-axis... (in 'higher' education) - ask a group of teens or early twens to calculate the net price out of an item...

Education is the most important investment in our future - and we more often than not waste it on high flying, specific knowledge 80% will never need in their life again - whereas orthography, languages, social functioning, even a basic understanding of law and law making as well as the basic 'learn how to learn' is forgotten.

We are using the tools of the past generation to teach the coming one - and that in a world of rapid growth of and fast access to information of all kind. But we do not teach how to cope with that, and how to put it to good use.

[Ubereil]

Mar 18, 2010 11:28:07 GMT Elliot Kane said:

Morals are a matter of Consensual or Subjective Reality. They have no actual existence outside of the minds of people. They are either an agreed upon definition of 'right' and 'wrong' or a personal definition of 'right' and 'wrong'.

You could point to a moral or ethic and say "This is a standard moral/ethic for Society X in Location Y at Time Z" and that would be true. But you could never point to any moral or ethic and say "This is an Objective truth." Not without being wrong, at least! ;D

When we make an action, that action has consequences. That's a natural fact. These consequences affects pepole*. It makes some pepole feel non-negative**, some pepole feel non-positive*** and most pepole feel idifferent. All natural facts.

There are consequences that makes a lot of pepole feel really non-positive while not making anyone feel non-negative. Natural fact. There are consequences that makes a lot of pepole feel really non-negative without making anyone feel non-positive. Natural fact. From this we can derive that there are consequences that bring about more non-negative feelings (non-negative feelings-non-positive feelings) than others, which is also a natural fact.

To conclude from this that consequences that bring about more non-negative feelings than others are better consequences than those others isn't that much of a stretch. From that it follows naturally that we should try to maximise our consequences when deciding what to do. And we have a moral fact: We should try and maximise consequences because doing so is better than not doing so.

Why do I use non-negative and non-positive? Because I found positive and negative feelings (not to mention good and bad feelings) too emotionally charged, I want this argument to be as rational and detatched from feeling as I possibly can.

Oh, and the funny thing is that "no moral facts exists" is (if it's true) a moral fact.

*Pepole here is defined as living beings. A bacteria is as much a person in this case as a full grown human being.

**Happy, content, satistifed etc.

*** Sad, angry, nauseous, disappointed etc.

Mar 18, 2010 12:47:32 GMT Glance A'Lot said:

Politicians do not seem optimal to me as they are too much focused on purely contemporary aspects (like to being reelected).

Mar 18, 2010 12:47:32 GMT Glance A'Lot said:

Education is the most important investment in our future - and we more often than not waste it on high flying, specific knowledge 80% will never need in their life again - whereas orthography, languages, social functioning, even a basic understanding of law and law making as well as the basic 'learn how to learn' is forgotten.

We are using the tools of the past generation to teach the coming one - and that in a world of rapid growth of and fast access to information of all kind. But we do not teach how to cope with that, and how to put it to good use.

Quoted for truth.

Übereil

[Dark Phoenix Rising]

<Grammar Nazi>pepole = people</Grammar Nazi>