My Thoughts on the Matter

[Lews]

I'm not leaving; yet.

But several people I've really grown to like in the last few days have.

Elliot has said that he sees no reason to ban anyone, and is genuinely shocked to see people leaving.

Bull[Censored]

But there is one thing more than any other that can undercut the atmosphere here, hurt the boardies and damage Chaos as a whole: that thing is genuine malice.

Verse

Why do you
call this poetry?
Poetry isn't just prose
spaced weirdly, indented--
at random. Chopped into
uneven pointless lines.

Free verse
is a shoddy excuse
for people to
churn out
what they claim
to be poetry--
a lazy way out
because you have no clue
about rhyme or rhythm
or form. Unable
to string real stanzas
together to form
patterns.

Keep your hands off
free verse until
you know how
to make language flow
into lyrics and paint
with words. In other
word, learn the rules
before trying to
break them.

This is not poetry.
Go back and read
some Milton, or
Swinburne;
retake English 101.

Yes, that is clearly not genuine malice. This is just criticism. This is going to help them write better, and not hurt feelings at all.

Shut the hell up and go do something interesting. And grow up, you little brats.

Again, this is not spiteful at all.

both cute and sad at the same time. And amusing.

Yes, dear, whatever you say. *pats*

You're a bad debater! Your online words are no longer to be taken seriously by anyone! Hah! Feel ashamed. Feel debased. Cry into your pillow at night.

It's just that tragic, I tell you.

Yes, none of those are looking down at people, or being mean-spirited at all. I can see why you are confused that people dislike you.

But maybe this is all a new thing, that you're in a bad mood right now, and like to take it out on people. Let's go back to 3 years ago, Larian Forums. Why look, here you are, posting helpful things!

Feel like a bigger boy now, dearie? *pinches your cheek* There, there, run along now. I'll resist the temptation to use an anime-style emotion.

Dearie, dearie me. I'm so chastised, I'd like to hang my head and kneel in repentance in the face of your... what, ancient wisdom? Or something. Hur hur.

You have all the persuasive power of a very moldy, very stale bread. I’ll try you again when I’m starving and there’s really no food within reasonable proximity.

My favorite

What, you haven't seen the reviews at Amazon.com? Tsk.

That's weird! I thought that you had said in the Harry Potter thread that Amazon meant nothing =/ Weird!

I think Kiya herself, one of the best people to ever go to the Divine Divinity forums, said it best.

I [Censored] at you, because you pick on people, who can't defend themselves, regardless of topic. And in this thread, you used your usual predictable way again to use language and critic as a tool to cut down creativity and imagination. Letting aside the way that you prefer to attack instead of using constructive language, you dumb down literature to cold mathematics: formalism, style rules, grammar, spelling are the axioms for good writing.

I disagree here strongly. I doubt you have ANY idea how to write or even determine what writing is about. So far, so good - you're free to have your opinion. What I promised you, is a promise I intend to keep: to speak up - regardless of you liking it or not.

You can't follow this way, because you don't want to. You choose to remain on your standpoint - ok for me, no loss. Stay on your formalism side, keep this illusion - but I will continue to speak up. For you?

Nope, closed ears are a waste of time and energy (a Carebear has to care for, in order to care about and bother - you don't fit in either category in my case) - I speak up for those, who might be discouraged - who see formalism as a gag, a tyrant and secretly try to throw away their work. Or those, who sit in front of their work and can't carry on. Creativity, imagination comes first - this is training. Developing a cliche char as a start is no crime and simply a basis to start from (maybe with aid from others). This is the way to write - using the cliche char as a frame to step out and develop own individualistic approaches - and then, afterwards, prune the story into a formalistic manner (not as a rule, simply as a gentle way of forming). Like or or not, has no impact on me.

That's very odd. It seems in 3 years you haven't changed a bit. The fact that you have already made 2 members who have been here for years leave, is bad. But when I look back at your past, I see you've never changed. You're still the loud mouthed [Censored] with an attitude you've always been. You argue that you have gone through your 'lolz im unique111' phase, but I doubt that. You think you are so smart, but does that make it okay that you have no friends? ( And no, I have no proof you have no friends)

LaFille asked me to remove a post of mine directed at you once, and I did because she's a very good friend, and very nice. I hope that I won't be asked to remove this one, though, since I don't see it happening.

I don't know why you are the way you are, but I do know that you are a hateful, angry little [Censored].

Elliot, grow some balls please. You banned Misty for the reasons you are not banning winterfox. Instead of even chastising her at all, you tell me and Peter to leave her alone. I am quite shocked. I know you were one of the only people to like her on Larian, even though I don't know why.

I don't want to leave these forums, and I know SPS and Terror didn't either. You've let them leave, when all you need to do is to ban winterfox. Normally I'd say warn her, but I know that won't change anything. She's already been warned, and it didn't do any good.

And yes, this is a message to winterfox: thank you for your opinion, but kindly shut the [Censored] up. Thanks.

Sorry for the long read, I really don't want to leave here. I don't post much, but I've been going here alot more often. God knows I've got nothing better to do at my dads house then go on forums. I really like you guys and would hate to leave. But I'm already missing SPS and Terror. Do the right thing.

[BJC]

I know this is going to seem completely worthless to you....and if you need an explanation I'll be glad to provide it through PM or somewhere off the boards...

But you're wasting your time. And you're sadly missing a great deal that conflicts around the story...

[Elliot Kane]

Lews...

While I value all opinions, I am not sure that posts from another forum taken from three years ago are good proof of anything.

As you said, Winterfox HAS been cautioned for her behaviour here, and in no uncertain terms. She is expected to heed those warnings. That is the position as it currently stands.

[Lews]

Except the fact that her posts are exactly the same now, and those were just examples showing how she hasn't changed at all.

She has been cautioned? Wow good job there. She's definitely learned her lesson. Did you even read my post?

[Elliot Kane]

Yes Lews, I read your post.

[Lews]

Then why have you just left 2 friends of yours leave and just ignored the problem?

[Elliot Kane]

If you read Steve's caution I don't think you could fairly call it 'ignoring the problem'.

I know you've read my own in the HP thread, as you comment on what was said in that thread. That's not ignoring the problem, either.

[Winterfox]

I feel the obligation to point out a few things:

Shut the hell up and go do something interesting. And grow up, you little brats.

Waaay to take it out of context. Here's what the post actually was:

See the romantic tension in Half-blood Prince! What? I'm supposed to care about all this petty teenage gibbering and all this infantile "chest monster"? Shut the hell up and go do something interesting. And grow up, you little brats.

So, uh, "little brats" and "shut the hell up"? Talking about Harry Potter--as indicated by "Half-blood Prince" and "chest monster"? Directed at fictional characters. Nice try, but no go. I neither called anyone brats, nor told them to shut the hell up. Apart from Harry Potter and friends, and if you really want to take umbrage on the behalf of JK Rowling's figments of imagination... feel free, I suppose?

You're a bad debater! Your online words are no longer to be taken seriously by anyone! Hah! Feel ashamed. Feel debased. Cry into your pillow at night.

It's just that tragic, I tell you.

...I'm sorry, but you took this literally? Hyperbole, hyperbole, satire to demonstrate exactly how irrational that line of thinking is. Again, context. And if you think that responding to the same user in a different thread on the same forum constitutes stalking, what exactly is digging up posts from three years ago?

Oh, and you've now done all the things you've accused me of (stalking, personal attacks, bearing a grudge--three years old, as it turns out), packaged in one single tl;dr post. You do realize this, right?

[Lews]

Damn I'm good sometimes.

You see, I knew you were going to say this. ( I'm so clever lolz hax )

I've already posted my reply to this post of yours!

"And yes, this is a message to winterfox: thank you for your opinion, but kindly shut the [Censored] up. Thanks. "

[Winterfox]

Uh-huh. Sorry, I'm not obliged to shut up because you tell me to. Why, were you under the impression that you wield some sort of authority over... anyone?

[killerzzz]

Alright, I've looked around a bit, and here's how I see the situation. People are angry/leaving because...:
Winterfox's negative criticism can at times be constructive, but is also too often deconstructive: that is, unnecessarily harsh, sarcastic, and even hurtful.
Yes, negative criticism is good. Yes, it helps the writer improve. Yes, telling the writer exactly what he/she is doing wrong without smoothing it with kindness is useful for his/her improvement.
BUT, there are ways of pointing out a writer's flaws, and even straight out telling him or her that his/her work is terrible, but without the uncalledfor mean tone.

The sittyation is this: this is a particularily kind forum. While not always so (can't see any place being always nice), it tends to keep it in that general area.
Now, when posts are flung here and there and everywhere that give an impression of hostility, or critiques have not much more than the tone of "I wouldn wipe mah bottom wit dis", the 'natural order', if you will, is unbalanced.

My message: Winterfox, I'm not sure what to think of you. But I can say this. Before you post, chillax a little, and think of your tone and the possible reactions. Because you do come off as uptight, overcritical, and heated. More than less often, it seems to me that your company is unappreciated and undesired.
I'm not saying its on purpose, or that your a bad person, or that you shouldn't criticize peoples works to the max, or whatever. Just try to keep the tone at a more neutral level.

I feel that you believe that writers should be ready for aggressive criticism; that the world is hard and life is tough, and all that. But remember what I said above. This is meant to be a friendly forum, not the real world, and not a hardcore criticism forum ( I think ). That responce to SPS's poems is a perfect example of unnecessary.

I'm not poking fingers (yet) and I'm not saying what side I'm on (yet - but my inclination, I trust, is clear). I'm just trying to lay the situation bare for everyone. If I got something wrong, say so, but I think thats all along the lines of whats up. And if theres more to address, I think I could come up with something.

This post, I should say, was meant to be rather neutral.

I will say this, though: I am not pleased with the situation, not one part of it, not at all.

Killerzzz

[Ubereil]

Well put, Killerzzz. I'm with you here .

Übereil

[Alrik]

Interestingly, we have a similar "matter" on a high sensitivity forum right now.

People engaging in conflicts and leaving.

[hector]

So, this is the place where we can put our thoughts on the matter?

Good.

First, let me say that I like Winterfox. You could say I instantly liked her. Why? Because she's smart. I like smart people. Does she have a really big mouth (or fingers, whatever analogy is appropriate)? Yes, she does. But she has the brains to back it up.

This situation appears to be based primarily on her discussions with three members of this community: SPS, Pete and Terrordar.

Now, whenever someone loudly proclaims that they are leaving a message board my first, instant reaction is “don’t let the door hit your ass on your way out” Attention Whores, Drama Queens and Internet Martyrs bore me to tears. But unlike, say, Terrordar, SPS is neither of those things. In SPS case I’m genuinely sorry to see him go, and I hope he reconsiders. It’s not as if we were best friends or anything, but he was, and is, always a nice guy. I do wish Winterfox had cared just a bit more how therapeutic writing was for him. Also, he had asked Winterfox to leave him alone, and I’m sure she would have complied.

Next, was her argument with Pete. I’m not sure what chat conversation or whatever prompted him to go all shining knight against the evil, mean Winterfox and go pick a fight with her over a passing comment made a week ago, but Pete is one of the members here that I held in the highest esteem, and that was assuredly out of character for him. It was also completely pointless. However, what Winterfox did, go pick a fight with him in another thread, was wrong (and it was not stalking. Words mean things), and against the rules. I think Steve pointed that to her crystal clear, so I hope the matter is closed. I do not, repeat, do not want to se a thread by you, Pete, saying you’re leaving. I don’t want to go and kick some sense into you; especially because I don’t even remember which country you’re from.

And then there is Terrordar. Sweet, innocent Terrordar. Who never, ever causes any trouble. Who is always capable of a rational, level-headed discussion.

No wait, he’s not. He is, in fact, the complete opposite of that. I mean, should we compare the threads locked because of Terrordar vs the threads locked because of Winterfox? I’ve always liked TD, no mistake about it, but it’s just mind bogglingly ironic seeing him complaining of someone being a mean bully. It’s like Hugh Hefner complaining about someone being an old pervert. So, TD, if you’re still out there, and with all due respect:

GROW

THE

[Censored]

UP.

The third word will be censored, but I’m sure you get the gist.
I suppose we could continue this drama, I don’t think Elliot has been called on his bull[Censored]favoritism enough. I mean, how DARE he let someone he likes post in HIS OWN [Censored]ING FORUM. Elliot, you SUCK. How dare you let Winterfox post here just because she’s your friend? Who the hell you think you are? The guy who made this forum? I don’t know about the rest of you, but whenever I go to a friend’s house I DEMAND that he/she shows the door to those I dislike. Grow some balls already, Elliot. Don’t you know that banning someone from a message board is the DEFINITION OF COURAGE? I wish I could let you or Steve handle whenever someone crosses a line, but I don’t.

Ah, now that I got that out of my chest, let me suggest a crazy, wild idea: let’s enjoy the forum, and let’s enjoy interacting with the people we like and ignore those we don’t. It would be nice if we all loved each other, held each other hands and sang kumbaya every five minutes, but alas, that’s impossible. Some people we’ll like, other we won’t, in the end, this is a community, if Winterfox doesn’t fit for whatever reason, she’ll leave, no need to ban her. Who knows? Maybe she’ll fit right in in the future. In the meantime, if someone doesn’t want to hear what she has to say, a polite “Thanks, Wintefox, but please leave me alone” I’m sure will suffice.

[Winterfox]

I don't think I'll ever want to get on your bad side, Hector. :p Let's internet-elope and have beautiful babies.

With regards to criticism, yes, I will leave someone alone if he's said that he wants me to. SPS, before the poetry fiasco, last asked me if I could pick his things apart. Like, here:

sps1000 said:

If this is a mutualistic relationship then I don't mind negative criticism one bit as long as we're both benefitting from it. I don't want to take anything that will help you improve as a writer (I'm talking like a teacher already and I don't even have my degree ;D ). If you want I can send you lots of stuff I've written and then you can benefit. I'll sure as heck benefit from the input and occasional pointer.

I'm not saying that I wasn't harsh or female dog-y and nor am I absolving myself of all blame, but if he'd said then to leave him alone and stop, I would have. There's a reason I never touched Terrordar's stuff again after he blew up at me in another thread.

[hector]

winterfox said:

I don't think I'll ever want to get on your bad side, Hector. :p Let's internet-elope and have beautiful babies.

I can't say no. So, yes.

I'm such a slut.

With regards to criticism, yes, I will leave someone alone if he's said that he wants me to. SPS, before the poetry fiasco, last asked me if I could pick his things apart. Like, here:

sps1000 said:

If this is a mutualistic relationship then I don't mind negative criticism one bit as long as we're both benefitting from it. I don't want to take anything that will help you improve as a writer (I'm talking like a teacher already and I don't even have my degree ;D ). If you want I can send you lots of stuff I've written and then you can benefit. I'll sure as heck benefit from the input and occasional pointer.

I'm not saying that I wasn't harsh or female dog-y and nor am I absolving myself of all blame, but if he'd said then to leave him alone and stop, I would have.

Yeah, I didn't mean to absolve him of all fault, either. After all, he asked for it. Even..repeteadly? Not sure. But it was obvious your criticism was hurting him, even if you didn’t meant to, and was, well, right. If you don’t mind me saying, of everyone in this affair, he does deserve an apology.

Pete? I love the dope, but he picked a fight with you, so you picked one with him. Eye for an eye. Very Biblical

There's a reason I never touched Terrordar's stuff again after he blew up at me

in another thread. [/quote]

After he basically took your criticism at first with a “yes ma’am”. Criticism which was pretty tame compared to how you criticized SPS, by the way. And yet, he still felt the need to go all Drama Queen on you.

in another thread.

STALKER!!!!!

[Winterfox]

Yeah, on hindsight I should've been a lot gentler with SPS. If he's still out there somewhere, send him my sincere apologies. I was genuinely unaware how much his writing meant to him.

You'll have to bear the babies, btw; I have access to alien tech that'll let you do it. I hope you don't mind or anything.

[hector]

winterfox said:

Yeah, on hindsight I should've been a lot gentler with SPS. If he's still out there somewhere, send him my sincere apologies. I was genuinely unaware how much his writing meant to him.

Hopefully, he'll read this and come back.

You'll have to bear the babies, btw; I have access to alien tech that'll let you do it. I hope you don't mind or anything.

Interesting conundrum. Do I run, or give in? Last guy who gave birth went on to become the governor of California, despite the fact he barely speaks English.

Decisions, decisions.

[Elliot Kane]

Hec sees it pretty much the way I do, though with one minor exception. It's true that I like Winterfox (For pretty much the same reasons Hec does), but I think it would be stretching things to call her a friend, and I'm sure she would agree with that. We are at best acquaintances with a mutual interest in writing.

I have made one huge mistake, which I will readily admit: I should have definitely asked Winterfox to tone down the acerbic comments a LOT earlier than I did, and for that I will apologise to everyone. As Killerzzz has said this is by nature a very nice, very friendly forum and it is incumbent upon us all to keep it that way. Chaos is almost unique in my experience in being warm and welcoming to everyone, and I should have spelled that out when the first problems began.

I've been ill, Steve's been inundated & Fille is new to her Admin post. Mistakes were made, and I take responsibility for that as this is after all my forum. Being in charge means being responsible: it's as simple as that.

As things stand, I believe Winterfox to be a highly intelligent person with a lot to add to the forum, should she choose to moderate her attitude in line with the board requirements.

As far as I am concerned, she has been warned over her past behaviour and so far she seems to have taken those warnings to heart and be acting accordingly. That, to me, is the end of the matter.

I would greatly prefer now for us all to move on in line with Hec's suggestion and get back to enjoying the forum.

Hec, Killerzzz - thanks for your wise words. I find them incredibly helpful, and I'm sure others will, too.

As a final note, I like & respect both SPS and Terrordar and I truly hope they will return. However, the minute I start favouring one person over another simply because I like that person more is the moment I will no longer be fit to run this forum. Being fair doesn't mean always siding with the majority and it certainly does not mean giving in to pressure, even from friends. Mob rule is no rule at all. If I ban Winterfox primarily because a couple of people dislike her, who's next? If it's enough that a couple of boardies make a fuss, all it takes is a couple of people to dislike any of you for any reason, and you're in danger. Does anyone seriously want that?

I try to be fair to everyone, as far as I can, without fear or favour. Sure, I'm human - I'm gonna make mistakes sometimes and there will always be people who think my judgement is biased or just plain crazy - but that will never stop me trying. I owe it to all of you, my boardies, to try to make this the best forum on the web for all of you.

You may think I'm stupid to make a stand on principle over this, and if you do, well, you're entitled to your opinion. But that's how I feel. I accepted the responsibility for running this place, and that puts it all on my shoulders, for good or ill. That's just the way it is.

***

Alrik, I wish you luck in resolving the conflicts on the HS forum with minimal problems.

[peterh]

A quick note to everyone.

I am not leaving and never had any intention to do so. It takes way more for me to even consider leaving than this - and this is not a knock to sps since his situation was another.

I do have more to say on the matter and maybe I should go into details later. Right now I am expecting a visitor - so this is not wazeling out or anything.