|
Post by Elliot Kane on Sept 14, 2005 21:23:42 GMT
Yeah, as Marvel's version of Vertigo, MAX is definitely a damp squib. I think that Marvel thought it was a good idea - which I completely agree with - but they didn't really have much idea of what to put in it.
A definite shame. I think there is promise in the idea.
|
|
|
Post by Gray Lensman on Sept 14, 2005 21:33:58 GMT
I think Marvel had the right basic idea in creating a mature line. It's the approach that was all wrong.
Vertigo exists as a mature line that allows DC to get out of their usual mainstream work and do books that would never work in the DCU. Vertigo has mature content, but it's more a storytelling device than anything else.
MAX was, for the most part, superhero stories with more mature content. The same old thing, except with a higher rating. Almost all those books would have worked perfectly well as MK titles, and they were heavily MU-dependent. Which is why I think Marvel was right to pull out most of the line. Only Punisher actually requires MAX on a storytelling level.
A mature line still is a good idea... if Marvel can make it a distinctive entity that actually accomplishes something creatively with the content label.
|
|
|
Post by The Spider on Sept 14, 2005 23:14:48 GMT
The thing is, the Vertigo line didn't just get started instantly--it took some critically acclaimed mature readers books (i.e. Moore/Veitch/etc Swamp Thing, Gaiman's Sandman, Morrison's Animal Man and Doom Patrol) to establish that they could do an adult line, and then everything with a "suggested for mature readers" label got placed together in Vertigo.
With MAX, it seemed more like "LOOK! WE'RE DOING AN ADULT LINE! WITH LOTS OF SWEARING! AND NUDITY!"
|
|
|
Post by The Spider on Sept 14, 2005 23:16:04 GMT
303 is on issue 3 or 4 right now, Doom. Not sure which. It's very new though, so back issues should be very easy to find #4 just came out last week.
|
|
|
Post by The Spider on Sept 14, 2005 23:19:37 GMT
My favorite arc, by a rather wide margin, is Mother Russia. That was one kickass arc. I agree. This one was excellent. Speaking of the "Mother Russia" storyline, anyone remember the Punisher arcade game from the early 90's? If you play as Nick Fury, the special move he has (if you press both jump and attack buttons) is that he viciously swings around a belt at people.
|
|
|
Post by philster on Sept 15, 2005 0:51:00 GMT
I think Marvel had the right basic idea in creating a mature line. It's the approach that was all wrong. Vertigo exists as a mature line that allows DC to get out of their usual mainstream work and do books that would never work in the DCU. Vertigo has mature content, but it's more a storytelling device than anything else. MAX was, for the most part, superhero stories with more mature content. The same old thing, except with a higher rating. Almost all those books would have worked perfectly well as MK titles, and they were heavily MU-dependent. Which is why I think Marvel was right to pull out most of the line. Only Punisher actually requires MAX on a storytelling level. A mature line still is a good idea... if Marvel can make it a distinctive entity that actually accomplishes something creatively with the content label. I completely agree with you, and Spider's comments too. The idea of having a mature readers' line is to break out of the stereotypical American superhero fare and to do other types of stories that could be smarter and has more variety. Like you guys said, Marvel just did more superhero stories with uber violence and sex. It actually backfired on them, because their superheroes were originally for the younger generation to begin with, and parents began to not feel comfortable with kids reading stories when the superheroes they knew fell into that "mature" category. Spider-Man, for instance, should have never been made a mature book. But anyway, sorry to get off topic. Punisher is one I don't mind being being a mature book though. He was definitely a little different from the usual Marvel leading character, I always kinda saw him as a Die Hard Bruce Willis gone wrong.
|
|
|
Post by Duncan on Sept 15, 2005 0:58:35 GMT
Spider-Man never had a MAX title?
The books were clearly demarcated parental advisory, also.
Does the line not solely carry Punisher now?
|
|
|
Post by philster on Sept 15, 2005 1:38:04 GMT
There was a Spider-Man mature book that came out, it wasn't MAX, no, but my point still stands. Doing a more mature Spider-Man book is alike doing a mature Mickey Mouse comic. If they wanted to get young kids into reading comics, that wasn't the way to go.
The thing that American comic publishers needs to learn is that when they start something, they need to finish it with the same idea that made it successful to start with - I really feel that we just need to do away with "never-ending" superhero books. It's just a vicious circle. You'll get a good storyline every now and then, then they run out of ideas and the story disappoints. Every single comic book character in the history of American comics has disappointed at some point, either because of a bad artist or writer. They need to be more consistent, get a creative team, keep it on the book from start to end. Neil Gaiman's Sandman was perfect because he was there for the whole ride.
As things stand, American comics are just in it for the money, not the story. They don't realize that if they concentrate more on doing a good story from beginning to end with the same team for about 5 to 10 years, they'll make MORE money as a result, because readers will have that much more faith in them. Oh well.
|
|
|
Post by Elliot Kane on Sept 15, 2005 10:30:09 GMT
Spider - agreed on all counts. And thanks for the heads up on 303 Duncan - I think Supreme Power has one or two issues to go before it gets relaunched as MK, but I could be wrong. Either way, Punisher will very soon be the only MAX title, yes. Phil - you mean MK Spidey, yes? A stupid idea, I agree, but like you say, that one was about the money more than anything. Ultimately, all companies are about the money, however much we comic readers might wish it were otherwise. Marvel are just the most open about it. Or the worst at disguising it. Take your pick, there. I personally prefer progressive storytelling, but US comics are just not built that way. This isn't always a bad thing, and it need not lead to long periods of rubbish (Though it often does) if the artist & writer are chosen with care as being suited to the character(s) and the story. The great advantage of such long-lived characters, of course, is that they become absolute icons who everyone knows, even outside the world of comics. So - there are advantages both ways, there. Poor marketing, bad distribution and the old stereotypes of 'comics are for kids' and 'comics = superheroes' are what has damaged the US industry so badly. Those and the short sighted greed of all companies in the 90s during the infamous speculator boom. I understand there are Manga fans in the US who get really upset if you point out tat they are reading comics. That's a pretty sad state of affairs...
|
|
|
Post by Duncan on Sept 15, 2005 22:58:56 GMT
While I think your second paragraph is completely sensible, Phil, I'm just going to nitpick on two counts.
One being that Sandman was completely stripmined, leading to the mild critical success Lucifer and a hundred other bombs. The other being that MK Spidey was far from the adult title you make it out to be; iirc, it was PSR or PSR+ which I finally figured out to be 'Parental Supervision Required' - equivalent to PG or PG12 or whatever ratings you have. It was also, while quite violent, not a patch on the opening two pages of 'The Death of Jean DeWolff' by DeFalco/Frenz, which I read aged 7. Spider-Man has always been, in my life, reasonably violent reading. But don't worry! The webslinger was nowhere near a sweary caption.
I do think American comics - a term, I'm sure I don't have to tell you, that encompasses more than superheroes - have pretty much lost the sequential art battle to Manga, due to short-termist attitudes about pricepoints, marketing and availability and are long down the road to occupying a niche in the aforementioned culture category that they occupy. Which is, in the case of superheroes, probably as it should be.
'S all comics to me, anyway, and I welcome diversity in the field.
On-T, I really do think I need to check 'Mother Russia' which has been widely acclaimed.
|
|
|
Post by philster on Sept 16, 2005 2:06:07 GMT
While I think your second paragraph is completely sensible, Phil, I'm just going to nitpick on two counts. One being that Sandman was completely stripmined, leading to the mild critical success Lucifer and a hundred other bombs. But at least the original series had run its course; from beginning to end, I don't mind spin-offs, they do that in japanese manga too. (Though usually done by the original creators too.) But at least you have at least one well-written story that felt complete. Yeah but still, there were certain elements in it that would have made me rethink showing this comic to my kids, if I ever have any. Certainly a bit different from the Spider-Man books I used to read as a kid. I'll shut up now and let you guys back on topic.
|
|
brett
Apprentice
"We'll get you some cool new clothes, Tom"
Posts: 162
|
Post by brett on Sept 16, 2005 4:21:12 GMT
I don't know Phil. MK Spider-Man I wouldn't really classify as different in scope and intent than the actual Spidey movies. Which were rated M over here (I'm pretty sure), and presumably a similar rating in America and other countries (recommended for 15+, but nothing prohibiting younger ones from seeing it). And seeing how the more mature movie version is arguably the most successful iteration of the character,it seems to make sense that Marvel would do a similar version/book.
So basically, I see no problem with a MK Spidey book, given that it is no more violent nor mature than the movies. If they went beyond the precedents/limits set by the movie, I'd agree with you, but they were only really working to and within the limits of how Spidey is perceived nowadays.
|
|
brett
Apprentice
"We'll get you some cool new clothes, Tom"
Posts: 162
|
Post by brett on Sept 16, 2005 4:22:05 GMT
Oh, and Punisher, I'm grabbing the MAX hardcover tonight. Looking forward to it.
|
|
|
Post by The Spider on Sept 16, 2005 16:22:43 GMT
It's been a while since I read Millar's MK SPIDER-MAN run, but I remember it being not entirely as dark as, say, McFarlane's SPIDER-MAN run.
|
|
brett
Apprentice
"We'll get you some cool new clothes, Tom"
Posts: 162
|
Post by brett on Sept 16, 2005 23:46:32 GMT
I just re-read it last week, and it's about par with the movies for tone, darkness and 'maturity' and definitely less full-on than McFarlane's.
|
|
|
Post by Elliot Kane on Sept 19, 2005 14:34:16 GMT
Punisher vrs the modern day slave trade. This ought to be really good. Whats the betting Ennis did his usual thorough research? He has to be the best writer of 'real world' stories in comics.
|
|
|
Post by Gray Lensman on Sept 19, 2005 16:36:30 GMT
Wouldn't surprise me. At the very least, I expect this to not end up as preachy crap, as Judd Winick did with that John Walsh story in Outsiders. I don't see Ennis falling into that sort of trap. But more importantly, Punisher is actually a better fit for this sort of thing. It's a good start. I'm thoroughly interested so far.
|
|
|
Post by Elliot Kane on Oct 17, 2005 15:51:16 GMT
#26 and Ennis really lays it out straight. No-one right now deals with serious real world issues as well as Ennis, but even for him, this is searingly good.
|
|