|
Post by janggut on Sept 2, 2005 3:17:04 GMT
i had the same thought as well, Glance. why do thriving metropolis around the world happen to sit on volatile surroundings? if we look at the origin of those metropolis, did those settlers accept things they way the were (& still are), thinking the risks are worth the rewards waiting to be reaped from the place? i know Hong Kong has to face at least one typhoon annually yet it thrives. so a brief time of going through such brutal display of nature's power is worth it?
maybe those who live in such places now may not think of that issue consciously hence not really prepared to face such risk/loss?
the flood in europe, glance, are u referring to the one that happened recently? i recalled many places got hit by the torrential rain, estonia being one of the countries.
|
|
|
Post by SilvaShado on Sept 2, 2005 3:22:50 GMT
My dad pointed out that rebuilding where its flooded will be difficult because the water is now toxic - from industrial gases/liquids as well as human bodies. It could take a month to drain the water, but in that time, it'll sink into the ground and make the ground toxic.
He says they should raise the ground level, like taking mud from the rivers to raise the low points up ten feet - that could have saved a lot of people's lives. It's the difference between a house being completely flooded over and only flooding the first floor.
He also pointed out that it was a lot of the poor people that got killed because they had no way out - yet there were means to get them out - parking lots full of school buses that are now flooded, could have been used to transport people out. The same goes for the public buses. I know hindsight is 20-20, but a lot more could have been done to save people. All they need to know about evacuating people they could have seen in any number of disaster movies. Hollywood has it down to a science.
And yes, I talk to my dad the most about topics like this because he stays informed and I can't watch TV news directly or I get very very depressed.
|
|
|
Post by janggut on Sept 2, 2005 3:31:20 GMT
silva, i undertsand how u feel. i feel down too whenever i watch the news. it saddens me, turns me off, puts me off, angers me etc. all that negative feelings.
|
|
|
Post by Shan on Sept 2, 2005 4:08:37 GMT
I think for the majority of people this is true. They understand that it could happen, but they never think about it actually happening to them. Shan
|
|
|
Post by janggut on Sept 2, 2005 4:31:07 GMT
sad already with what happened in lousiana (the civil unrest & especially the plight of the poor), what i saw on the news about the stampede that happened in a religious festival in baghdad made me feel even worse. first it was a mortar into the crowd, killed a number & injured more. later on, a rumour started about a suicide bomber among the crowd, which made people panic & a stampede followed. some people were desperate enough to jump off the bridge nearby, killing themselves as they don't know how to swim. i heard that the bridge was badly damaged as well (no maintenance? too heavy?). the authorities were stupid enough to fire their guns in the air (hoping to catch people's attention therefore maintaining order, or so they thought) which made people panic even more. many of the victims were women & children. now that is something that should not have happened.
|
|
|
Post by Sir Ped of Ro on Sept 2, 2005 8:25:04 GMT
sad already with what happened in lousiana (the civil unrest & especially the plight of the poor), what i saw on the news about the stampede that happened in a religious festival in baghdad made me feel even worse. first it was a mortar into the crowd, killed a number & injured more. later on, a rumour started about a suicide bomber among the crowd, which made people panic & a stampede followed. some people were desperate enough to jump off the bridge nearby, killing themselves as they don't know how to swim. i heard that the bridge was badly damaged as well (no maintenance? too heavy?). the authorities were stupid enough to fire their guns in the air (hoping to catch people's attention therefore maintaining order, or so they thought) which made people panic even more. many of the victims were women & children. now that is something that should not have happened. one thousand Jan, one thousand people died...it's pure crazyness, there's no other word to define it!!! also yestereday was the first birthday of the school terror in russia in which resulted on the killing of innocents... this world is really upside down, sometimes!!!
|
|
|
Post by philster on Sept 2, 2005 8:50:14 GMT
And yet we endure. We have to.
That's life, folks. Roll with the hits. Make the best out of it. We need stuff like this to remind us to value life, or we just sit on our butts and do nothing.
|
|
|
Post by philster on Sept 2, 2005 8:55:46 GMT
And just so you guys know, I am out of gas, have no way to get gas right now, and it's going to probably turn the next week into a nightmare for myself as I'll probably have to walk to stores to even buy food and the like. Hurricane Katrina's effects are affecting the entire States.
Granted I know I'm much better off than the poor thousands and thousands of displaced people having to figure out what to do next right now, but Americans as a whole have become more uncomfortable due to the event.
I do find it arrogant when news stations say that it's a disaster "of biblical proportions" - I consider the Tsunami more likely to fit that description - but contrary to Glance's post, this is still huge news. America has taken a major hit to its gut by this storm and it's reeling right now. As an economical power, this could hurt us badly. Even more politically, everybody now is calling for the troops in Iraq "to forget them and to return to aid our own."
|
|
|
Post by Sir Ped of Ro on Sept 2, 2005 9:03:22 GMT
And yet we endure. We have to. That's life, folks. Roll with the hits. Make the best out of it. We need stuff like this to remind us to value life, or we just sit on our butts and do nothing. Phil WE DON'T NEED THIS TO REMIND US THE VALUE OF LIFE, BELIEVE ME!!! i'm also astonished that the biggest power in the world wasn't prepared to react to something like this. The funds to control and re-structure/hold the surrounding areas have been cuted down by the government, when in the past decades there have been serious/hard warnings for a worst case scenario... so many militarys, so many guns and bombs and the lack of coordination along with the lack of prevention for something so...inevitable, truly amazes me. this truly revolts me... regards
|
|
|
Post by philster on Sept 2, 2005 9:13:18 GMT
I'm sure Portugal doesn't need to be reminded, considering all your troubles, but don't presume to speak for America, because you're not from here.
We are a lazy country that takes most of the stuff we do for granted.
|
|
|
Post by Glance A'Lot on Sept 2, 2005 9:38:18 GMT
Jang - there always is a very good reason for an original settlement. In Hong Kong for example, it was the wonderful natural harbour, which at the times of sailing ships was invaluable as a safe place during typhoons. (For those interested in history served with a fun-factor, I recommend reading James Clavell's Tai-Pan). And of course, not all risks were known right away. Humans being what they are, they adapted both to their environment, as well as the environment itself.
Nonetheless, historically, 'safe' land always was valuable, and invariably landed in the hands of the powerfull. And the poor, or under-priviledged landed on the un-safe parts.
From hindsight we should not forget that 'risk of life' was defined and accepted differently than nowadays. Shelters were cheaper to build from natural resources, and pollution not such a significant factor (you were flooded - but you were flooded with pure water, not with a mixture of oil and chemicals). Diseases though always were a real threat.
Whenever something was done to protect, it was either to protect property or investments, or, in the case of people, the cheap labour force (in autocratic governments) or the voting mass (in democratic governments) - Am I sounding cynical?
hmm - this is side tracking into a humanology topic - I'll better cut it short.
Anyway - Germany has no significant earthquake risk, and no hurricanes. We have regular (yearly) river floodings, landslides and avalanches. And yes, they have been aggravated by man's influence on the environment in many respects.
To give you a perspective - the river Elbe around Dresden has an average depth of 2 yards. Flood protections are available up to 10 yards depth. (5 times security facor!) In 2003 it hit 11. (Ironically in 2004 there was an extreme dry summer, and it went down to 27.5 inches!)
But still - where is the learning factor? Houses are re-built in the exact same places. Even industrial plants on the river banks. Dams may be strengthened and heightened - nature follows - it's a vicious cycle.
|
|
|
Post by Glance A'Lot on Sept 2, 2005 10:01:03 GMT
...but contrary to Glance's post, this is still huge news.
Oh yes - don't let me be misunderstood here. It is news, and it should be - it just shouldn't be the only news.
One value of the news is to attract attention, to focus people to mind the problems, to make preparations for the inevitable event, and for the tackling of the consequences.
But by limiting it to the one major event, a false sense of security in other areas could be awakened. That's not our problem! That cannot happen here! Catastrophy plans? Investments in equipment, alternate shelters, mobile water purification facilities and electric power units? Storage of medication, logistics without roads being available? Not us - them!
But when I read that school buses and public transportation not only have not been used in the evacuation process, but also have been left to drown, and were not driven out to be available afterwards - now that should be bigger news than whether Katrina was a class 5 or a class 4 hurricane - and somebody should be made responsible, or at least I would want to see measures taken to prevent such in the future. But that, I fear, will not be on the news.
|
|
|
Post by Sir Ped of Ro on Sept 2, 2005 10:49:12 GMT
I'm sure Portugal doesn't need to be reminded, considering all your troubles, but don't presume to speak for America, because you're not from here. We are a lazy country that takes most of the stuff we do for granted. Phil If you care to share your knwoledge and general point of view over the Portuguese case i'm pretty much opened (and interested) on hearing your thoughts. Or if you want/are interested on knowing something about this event and what surrounds it, it will be my pleasure to share/developpe to you and everyone interested. Regarding USA, i don't mean to presume anything, i'm just a person who likes to be informed and expresses an opinion (in this case a revolt towards the incompetence and arrogance of a government). if also you have some pretty good background to share with us about this situation and others feel free to share...i always like to hear what others have to say, as long as it's an informed/factual speech (or at least most of it). at first glance while reading your reply i had the impression that you were quoting the recent Bush's speech, while saying "...we can manage this ourselfs, we can treat our own people, no need any help from foreigners...". do you know a certain chinese proverbe that goes something like this "if you're too close to a tree you end up missing the whole forest"?! sometimes not "being from here" can be a positive point... regards
|
|
|
Post by Sir Ped of Ro on Sept 2, 2005 10:53:51 GMT
Glance But when I read that school buses and public transportation not only have not been used in the evacuation process, but also have been left to drown, and were not driven out to be available afterwards - now that should be bigger news than whether Katrina was a class 5 or a class 4 hurricane - and somebody should be made responsible, or at least I would want to see measures taken to prevent such in the future. But that, I fear, will not be on the news. well said... when the structures that hold the waters were prepared for a class 2, at best class 3 hurricaine (if they were renovated during the years, which wasn't the case) and they knew an hurricane class 5 was hitting the area...reminds me of the attitude of that big birds animals that drown their heads in the ground, hoping the danger passes!!! regards
|
|
|
Post by Elliot Kane on Sept 2, 2005 11:03:04 GMT
Glance is right that this is definitely heading into Humanology The idea for this thread is to commiserate with the victims of Hurricane Katrina, and other natural disasters around the world. Anyone who wishes to discuss who is to blame for whatever shortcomings there may be in the response to the disasters can open a new thread in Humanology for that purpose
|
|
|
Post by Shan on Sept 2, 2005 17:19:23 GMT
When I started this thread, I was not trying to say that what happened in Louisiana and the other hard hit states was worse or more important than what has happened or is happening in other parts of the world because it is not. What Jags mention happening in the religious festival in Baghdad, the Tsunami, what is going on in Pedro's country, and what Glance mentioned happens in Germany, and all the other disasters that happen are devastating. They shake us up and make us ask why. They also pull us together and make us want to help each other. But are things really going to change, no. Why? because we are people and that is just not the way of mankind. Some small changes may take place, people will rebuild, towns will be restored, and life will go on. This thread was posted out of concern for board members, their families, their friends or just people they know. It was not meant to start arguments and I am sorry if by starting it I have caused anyone to be hurt or feel like I only care about what happens in the US. Shan
|
|
|
Post by Terrordar on Sept 2, 2005 17:29:45 GMT
This was a ticking timebomb waiting to happen.
Between global warming, and an aging underpowered levy system, it was going to happen down the road at some point, which is sad, but true.
I feel terrible for all the people who died, and the people who lived, but these events were coming down the road, it was only a matter of time before a huge hurricane hit.
|
|
|
Post by Sir Ped of Ro on Sept 2, 2005 18:42:56 GMT
This thread was posted out of concern for board members, their families, their friends or just people they know. It was not meant to start arguments and I am sorry if by starting it I have caused anyone to be hurt or feel like I only care about what happens in the US.
Lady S. You don't need to justify or apologise by your concern towards other people. you never lead on your postings on only caring for this situation or any other. regards, Pedro.
|
|
|
Post by Sir Ped of Ro on Sept 2, 2005 18:45:50 GMT
This was a ticking timebomb waiting to happen. Between global warming, and an aging underpowered levy system, it was going to happen down the road at some point, which is sad, but true. I feel terrible for all the people who died, and the people who lived, but these events were coming down the road, it was only a matter of time before a huge hurricane hit. that's what revolts me the most, specially when people have the tools/power/money to do so. I feel terrible for all the people who diedi feel more terrible for the people who are still dying and will died because they won't be rescued in time!!! starving, lack of water, armed gangs killing and rapping, dieases spreading, etc... regards
|
|
|
Post by Glance A'Lot on Sept 2, 2005 19:12:38 GMT
Shan - don't blame yourself for anything - your caring concern is appreciated.
If anyone is to blame, it is myself for zooming out the focus from Louisiana to global, which, while not regretted by me as a general notion, was out of place (topic).
|
|