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Post by Elliot Kane on Aug 26, 2009 7:38:07 GMT
Dragon - no. Not only did America have no real interest in a war with Japan (Roosevelt wanted to join in with the war against HITLER, despite the majority of his countrymen's wishes, not start a whole new front against Japan) but they had no reason to want it, either.
Nor could a nation the size of America think it was even possible to provoke a tiny country like Japan into attacking it. It was like a minnow attacking a fully grown pike - utterly insane.
Even if by some vast Machiavellian scheme America COULD provoke a country not even a tenth its size into attacking it, why bother? As noted, the real enemy was Hitler and there was no guarantee that Japan declaring war would cause Germany to do the same. No treaty bound Germany to support a Japanese war of aggression, after all.
What Roosevelt DID do was to allow Pearl Harbour to happen despite prior warning and pretend there had been no declaration of war from Japan until afterwards because he needed an outrage to force his people to fight and was doubtless hoping such an outrage could be used to fire their blood against Germany, too. It seems to have worked.
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Post by twoheadedragon on Aug 27, 2009 13:51:25 GMT
Dragon - no. Not only did America have no real interest in a war with Japan (Roosevelt wanted to join in with the war against HITLER, despite the majority of his countrymen's wishes, not start a whole new front against Japan) but they had no reason to want it, either. Nor could a nation the size of America think it was even possible to provoke a tiny country like Japan into attacking it. It was like a minnow attacking a fully grown pike - utterly insane. Even if by some vast Machiavellian scheme America COULD provoke a country not even a tenth its size into attacking it, why bother? As noted, the real enemy was Hitler and there was no guarantee that Japan declaring war would cause Germany to do the same. No treaty bound Germany to support a Japanese war of aggression, after all. What Roosevelt DID do was to allow Pearl Harbour to happen despite prior warning and pretend there had been no declaration of war from Japan until afterwards because he needed an outrage to force his people to fight and was doubtless hoping such an outrage could be used to fire their blood against Germany, too. It seems to have worked. Right... I guess so. Of course, the Oil Embargo did make the Japs quite upset, but maybe the Americans didn't think that'd make them too upset... Yeah, of course he let Pearl Harbor happen. |
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Post by twoheadedragon on Aug 27, 2009 13:57:02 GMT
Your assessment of World War II is grosely flawed. The British went to war in order to preserve the Sovereignty of Poland. The French entered the war for the same reason. After the Annexing of Poland is when Hitler declared war on the low countries, and by then both Britain and France were in the war. Erm, TD, nobody said otherwise about why the British and French fought in WWII.  Most of what was posted here about WWII was about America's involvement in the war, Hitler's madness, and the Maginot line.  |
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Post by Elliot Kane on Aug 27, 2009 14:01:52 GMT
(Actually, embarrassingly, I said differently. Bad memory lapse...)
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Post by twoheadedragon on Aug 27, 2009 14:07:02 GMT
(Actually, embarrassingly, I said differently. Bad memory lapse...) OH... I just remembered... ;D (you're not the only one who gets memory lapses)  |
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Post by Elliot Kane on Aug 27, 2009 14:41:27 GMT
(Not my finest moment... ;D)
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Post by Glance A'Lot on Aug 27, 2009 22:03:48 GMT
Don't worry - I'm always around to give you an opportunity to say "You're right, Glance" |
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Post by ss on Aug 28, 2009 0:44:41 GMT
What Roosevelt DID do was to allow Pearl Harbour to happen despite prior warning and pretend there had been no declaration of war from Japan until afterwards because he needed an outrage to force his people to fight and was doubtless hoping such an outrage could be used to fire their blood against Germany, too. It seems to have worked. If I recall correctly from the history I studied (and from all the movies too ), the Japanese ambassadors were late delivering the declaration of war until after the attack on Pearl had already started. So there was no pretending that a declaration of war from Japan, because it would not have been declared..?? Do you have info to the contrary.?? They well knew that something was going on and that maybe it would be war, but like the intelligence that was delivered about Iraq, it was faulty, some outright wrong, some lies, some misread, because it is only the "Monday moring quarterbacks" that have 20/20 vision...or so we think.. ;D |
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Post by Elliot Kane on Aug 28, 2009 1:19:22 GMT
Don't worry - I'm always around to give you an opportunity to say "You're right, Glance" And just as well, too! ;D *** They knew exactly what was going on. That was why Roosevelt ordered all the good, modern ships moved out before Pearl Harbour was hit. Unlike with Iraq, where suspects were repeatedly waterboarded until they gave the answer the Bush administration wanted, Roosevelt had good and reliable intelligence. Not least from British Intelligence, IIRC. The Japanese declaration of war was sent several hours before the attack on Pearl Harbour, IIRC (So not much warning, but some). Legend has it that it wasn't noticed until much later because no-one was in the office when it was telegraphed, but well... I have my suspicions about that one... Historians mostly seem to agree now that Roosevelt knew about Pearl Harbour weeks before it happened. There's still some discussion about exactly when the US got the declaration of war and when it was sent. For obvious reasons it's not something the US govt wants to be all that open about. Given the fact that the US govt at the time were looking to pull the full weight of public opinion behind them through allowing an outrage, though, you have to ask what fits with that desired end best... *** If you believe the movies, the US liberated Burma when they were never there and captured the first Enigma machine when they weren't even in the war when that happened. Amongst other... discrepancies... ;D |
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Most of what was posted here about WWII was about America's involvement in the war, Hitler's madness, and the Maginot line. 
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