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Post by Elliot Kane on Oct 21, 2009 20:27:18 GMT
The image America projects (At least as far as this foreigner in another land is concerned!) is of a nation trying really hard to not be racist. Like every other nation on the globe, you have a ways to go, but you seem to be really trying and a whole lot harder than many nations.
It's very jarring to me to discover that America has whole huge areas that seem to operate on the principle of segregation by common consent. It's an attitude I'd not normally expect outside of a ghetto or sink estate in most Western nations.
Still, I guess it all comes down to generational change in the end. The pace of social progress is always slow...
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Post by kitty on Oct 21, 2009 23:01:47 GMT
Meh, they made an experiment in a tv show here where they took a white german guy and bodypainted him black. He kept is german accent and all and went to different events to see how people react.
n normal surroundings (the park, supermarket, theatre) all was fine, people did not wonder or stare, did talk to him normal etc.
But then they sent him to a soccergame. Holy crap... was caught between being outrageous and sad.
Slightly offtopic but thought I tell.
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Post by Flix on Oct 22, 2009 5:26:35 GMT
The image America projects (At least as far as this foreigner in another land is concerned!) is of a nation trying really hard to not be racist. Like every other nation on the globe, you have a ways to go, but you seem to be really trying and a whole lot harder than many nations. It's very jarring to me to discover that America has whole huge areas that seem to operate on the principle of segregation by common consent. It's an attitude I'd not normally expect outside of a ghetto or sink estate in most Western nations. Still, I guess it all comes down to generational change in the end. The pace of social progress is always slow... Well, the image the US projects is New York and California. There's a spectrum within each state I'm sure, that runs from the bad (like I've described or worse) to the not really noticeable. It just depends. I've seen it get better in just the 20 years that I remember living there.
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Post by fughawzi on Oct 22, 2009 5:42:59 GMT
And California isn't a hot bed of lovely liberalism either. It is actually a fairly republican state outside of the Los Angeles and San Francisco areas, and I mean republican in the bad way. If you ever look on an election map, most of the state is red. Racism is very common and, at least around me, people can get fairly classist on top of that. And homophobic.
I think America tried to project San Francisco, New York City, and Los Angeles to the world, but that has faded in this decade. Most of the people I talk to around my age in other countries think America gives off the impression of being stupid and overly Christian.
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Post by kitty on Oct 23, 2009 0:07:23 GMT
(^ and the US does very well in pushing that impression further and further...)
Someone followed the demonstrations against Nick Griffin? The BNP-chairman was invited to a BBC show and lots of people weren't so very amused about that.
Griffin is a rightwing extremist who actually was with one foot in prison before because of racial hatred.
It's impressive how much people showed up and it's interesting that BBC gives someone like that airtime in such a program... (*coughs* Fox News all over again? *coughs*)
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Post by fughawzi on Oct 23, 2009 3:20:43 GMT
It really does. I think it is definitely a generational thing.. Elliot, people your age are much more likely to remember America as projecting a 'better' image.
I was reading about Griffin and Question Time because a friend of mine was getting all.. excited about it, I guess? That man creeps me out, ugh.
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Post by Glance A'Lot on Oct 23, 2009 8:09:19 GMT
It really does. I think it is definitely a generational thing.. Elliot, people your age are much more likely to remember America as projecting a 'better' image. Not to speak of people of my age... In my youth - the Marlboro man still was a hero appearing on TV; - American TV series were considered quality; - jeans were sold that were well sown and had no cuts; - the Cola wars fought epic battles (some advertisements actually were fun watching); - the $ was THE $; - ... Of course our picture of America was idolized and idealised.
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Post by Dark Phoenix Rising on Oct 23, 2009 8:13:29 GMT
(^ and the US does very well in pushing that impression further and further...) Someone followed the demonstrations against Nick Griffin? The BNP-chairman was invited to a BBC show and lots of people weren't so very amused about that. Griffin is a rightwing extremist who actually was with one foot in prison before because of racial hatred. It's impressive how much people showed up and it's interesting that BBC gives someone like that airtime in such a program... (*coughs* Fox News all over again? *coughs*) I think that as a public broadcaster the BBC were right to include a BNP Representive in the program, however this is only because the BNP are a legal political party (i.e. you can vote for them). I also think that they are caught in a rock and a hard place - if they didn't allow them then the BNP would be calling them biased, and serving an agenda. However by allowing them they can at least hold onto the mantel of impartiality (as an organisation)
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Post by Elliot Kane on Oct 23, 2009 8:28:46 GMT
Zee - I think you're right that younger people have a worse view of the US than older people (And you have no idea how much I wince, writing that statement! ;D)
On the BNP/BBC thing - if people are really interested in the issue, I think that deserves its own thread... It's likely to run long, after all ;D
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Post by fughawzi on Oct 23, 2009 10:43:34 GMT
Wince because you're considered to be older or because you said I'm right? Don't do that to my brain, Elliot!
It is very interesting, that huge gap in views on America. I know this really isn't the point of this thread, but I'm curious as to how it was when the US was idealized? It is something I've never experienced and probably never will. The concept seems incredibly strange to me, actually..
I agree with Dark Phoenix Rising - As horrible as some people's beliefs are to me, I always think they should be represented in the media. Does it stop me from wanting to punch them? Hell no.
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Post by Elliot Kane on Oct 23, 2009 12:30:51 GMT
Wince at the 'older'. Why should I wince at you being right, Zee? I don't even wince on the rare occasions that Ube is right! ;D
As for the image of the US... Well, I'm not sure it was ever 'idealised' so much as the US as a whole managed to play down a lot of its faults. Either it ignored them, pretended they weren't there or flat out denied them and those of us outside the US had no real way to get any information about the US that was not provided by the US itself.
The US seemed like this huge friendly giant (At least if you were on the right side of the Berlin Wall, as it were ;D) and its foibles thus seemed less than they were and its virtues more.
Two things have really lowered the reputation of the US: the internet, which gives a LOT of information that the mainstream press would never tell you (And actually allows conversation with Americans on a regular basis, so you can get a first hand view); and George Bush Jnr, who pretty much raised the hackles of the entire world and caused us all to look again at his country as a result.
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Post by kitty on Oct 23, 2009 17:07:20 GMT
(the BNP topic is interesting but maybe we have too much racial threads lately...?)
Eli is right, on the west side of the wall the US was idolized, everyone believed the 'everything is possible' hoax, everyone thought going to the US, means becoming a star after being a dishwasher. (West-) German students loved nothing more than to spent a year of their schooling in the US, because hey, all the american TV shows showed that (shallow) pretty image of overdressed teenagers that seem to only need to be good in sports to lead a successful life.
East Germans did not have that ideas of course.....
Now after Bush, the US is as 'popular' as Germany by most people in the world.
Obama helps to change that very slighty though, but Bush damaged so much of the american reputation that even an enthusiastic black president will not persuade everyone.
The idea that americans are crazy-christian, muslim-hating, terrible-uneducated (especially historywise!), over-patrotic and megalomanic nutheads is a strong one and will most likely not change in the next, uh, 80 years or so...
(Americas best bet is that people forget the severity and their reputation just becomes a running gag - worked for us = "soup-nazi"...)
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Post by Elliot Kane on Oct 23, 2009 17:24:24 GMT
More that the BNP issue is complex and really requires an overview of the current Brit political situation, Kit. I don't mind writing that if there's genuine interest, but the root cause on the BNP gaining what slight popularity it enjoys has nothing to do with the BNP itself, believe it or not.
Because it really is that complex, it needs a new thread for proper discussion.
(At the moment, BTW, I think the two least popular nations in the world are the US and the UK. Sorry to steal Germany's thunder... ;D)
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Post by kitty on Oct 23, 2009 17:49:41 GMT
^ Even though under NORMAL circumstances I would NEVER argue about us being more popular then other countries... The UK, at least in Germany, is not that unpopular but that is to your luck that we still (want to) believe in the My Fair Lady like smugness we came to love. And I personally love the royals, it's like a bunch of colorful Big Brother candidates that really take themselfs serious, it's histerical to watch. But I rather don't tell you what the Aussies think about you guys... 'POM(e)S' is the nicest name they give you fellows.
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Post by Elliot Kane on Oct 23, 2009 18:07:28 GMT
Oh, I know. But in the event of any serious problems in the world, Australia will always stand with us. Makes you think, that
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Post by kitty on Oct 23, 2009 18:14:21 GMT
The australian goverment will. Because they must. Because the Queen is still their head of state.
But there is hardly any support for that by the people, I can tell you as much.
When Australians hear British or worse 'Queen' the eyes basically fall out of their sockets from rolling in annoyance... well that's my experience anyway! Maybe Handy can say something to this.
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Post by Terrordar on Oct 23, 2009 19:07:45 GMT
Yea, racial tensions don't just come from white folks either. You should see what its like to live where I do.
30% of the population is East Indian. 35% is "Caucasian", and the rest is assorted other groups. And I can tell you this- The East Indians for the most part, dislike the white people, and the white people for the most part, hate the East Indians.
Now, I myself, I think most of the East Indians are cool, in fact most of the people I work with are, but I am treated poorly by racist mother-[Censored]ers all the time. Most East Indian people who I have to deal with on a consumer level generally treat me like [Censored] and generally will drop me in a heartbeat to talk to a brown male. Not a brown woman, no, they are insulted by the idea. Its a pretty sad statement.
But then the exact same thing happens to the East Indian folks almost as often with the white folks where I work. The white guy/girl will find an excuse to ditch their East Indian salesperson, for a white one.
Because literally both of these groups, feel that the color of their skin will get them a better deal on their laptop/desktop/TV. Its funny as hell. I'm generally disgusted by this kind of behavior, because people will never talk about how they don't want to deal with you because of the color of your skin, they just act like it. The great one is when the East Indian fellow says, in perfect English to the T- "I wish to speak to a salesperson in Punjabi.", implying of course, that they need to speak with a brown salesperson.
Many of my brown Co-workers are generally disgusted by the vulgar attitude of the average person who openly will talk in Punjabi about how much they dislike white people. And I can say the same for the White people who are ballsy enough mother-[Censored]ers to think they can whine to me how they wish Canada was a "White" nation. I generally kick people out over that [Censored]if they start that up, which gets them super pissed off.
But at the end of the day, they have a right to be racist. And sadly Racism is not going away anytime soon. Or rather it would go away sooner, but its likely we'll run out of resources because any kind of the beginnings of a global society can be realized.
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Post by Ubereil on Oct 23, 2009 21:13:22 GMT
The great one is when the East Indian fellow says, in perfect English to the T- "I wish to speak to a salesperson in Punjabi.", implying of course, that they need to speak with a brown salesperson. Take classes in Punjabi... ;D Übereil
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Post by kitty on Oct 23, 2009 22:27:24 GMT
Well Terre, that is sad what you discribe and I actually agree for the most part but I do not agree about the 'they have the right to be rascist' part. When the whole Nick Griffin thing was just then, lots of people (including himself) babbled about freedom of speech. I can't stand this ridiculous argument anymore! There is no such thing as complete freedom of speech. We all have censorship in our countries, we have it here on this very board, (as an example) here in Germany, it is forbidden to say nazi-related things in public (shouting Heil H... etc). most countries have laws against insulting etc etc. Freedom of speech, in reality, means you can go and tell you mate at the next soccergame that you dislike person X because he is a black/jewish/white/latino .. etc but it does not mean you can do so publicly. And towards Ube's comment towards Terre....
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Post by Hand-E-Food on Oct 23, 2009 23:33:54 GMT
The australian goverment will. Because they must. Because the Queen is still their head of state. But there is hardly any support for that by the people, I can tell you as much. When Australians hear British or worse 'Queen' the eyes basically fall out of their sockets from rolling in annoyance... well that's my experience anyway! Maybe Handy can say something to this. Frankly, it took you to remind me that we're technically under the Queen's rule. Aside from good relations, I have no idea what we give to or receive from England, but then I don't follow politics either. As far as I can tell, we're completely independent from England. About a decade ago they held a referendum to see if Australians wanted to become a republic instead of a monarchy. ( Link.) It failed, so there must be a few Australians out there that still hold the Queen in high regard.
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