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Post by Terrordar on Jun 15, 2005 0:32:01 GMT
Does this image ring true? When I looked at it, it seemed really true when I thought about it. Around much of the world, even parts of the Western World, this is how America is now precieved, at least from what I can see. Would anyone agree with me?
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Post by ss on Jun 15, 2005 12:28:09 GMT
I agree, we live in a paradoxical world don't we The rest of the world can burn our flags, behead our people on world wide tv, destroy our bibles, and anything else we may imagine, but if it is reported that a page of the Koran is damaged in any way, we have commited the unpardonable sin, go figure..and supposedly thinking Americans line up with an indignate justification that we have somehow offended the rest of the world, but are we not justified in being offended by the way the world looks at us? Notwithstanding T you are right with the pic..
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tragic
Chaosite
Happiness is a cigar called hamlet
Posts: 627
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Post by tragic on Jun 15, 2005 12:48:54 GMT
Most in the western world as well as other parts of the world have a dim view of the US foriegn policy...also of the conservative press in the US. Having said that if anyone else were in the same place as the US they would probably be doing the same thing as the US...... In the same way US and most people get angry a suicide bombers..yet if they found themselves in the same posiston as these people...they probably would do the same thing..its wierd I would say that the muslims do ask for more protection than all other ethnic minorities and the are very touchy about their religon...im guessing that would change after 40 years...
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Post by Terrordar on Jun 15, 2005 19:26:54 GMT
I agree, we live in a paradoxical world don't we The rest of the world can burn our flags, behead our people on world wide tv, destroy our bibles, and anything else we may imagine, but if it is reported that a page of the Koran is damaged in any way, we have commited the unpardonable sin, go figure..and supposedly thinking Americans line up with an indignate justification that we have somehow offended the rest of the world, but are we not justified in being offended by the way the world looks at us? Notwithstanding T you are right with the pic.. I totally agree with the double standard there friend, but here is the problem. If the USA does do the same thing its enemies do, it gets no simpathy from anyone else, no more aid from anyone else, and becomes even MORE isolated then it already is. And the Western World holds up much higher expectations and standards you see. So I do agree with you, but at the same time, I don't
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Post by Elliot Kane on Jun 15, 2005 19:49:13 GMT
The biggest problem facing the US in terms of current global perception is partly in the past, in the way the US fought its brushfire wars across the world against Russia since the end of WW2 - but mainly in the perception of the US in the present.
It is inevitable that the greatest military power in the world cannot invade much smaller and far weaker countries for any reason - good or bad - without looking like a bully and a tyrant.
The largest and most powerful nation on Earth throwing its weight around is always going to cause anger and resentment, whatever that nation might be. It was true of the dominant nations of the past, and its true of the US now.
It is very rare indeed for a dominant nation to attract admiration more than fear; love more than loathing.
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Post by hector on Jun 16, 2005 1:27:02 GMT
I agree, we live in a paradoxical world don't we The rest of the world can burn our flags, behead our people on world wide tv, destroy our bibles, and anything else we may imagine, but if it is reported that a page of the Koran is damaged in any way, we have commited the unpardonable sin, go figure..and supposedly thinking Americans line up with an indignate justification that we have somehow offended the rest of the world, but are we not justified in being offended by the way the world looks at us? Notwithstanding T you are right with the pic.. It's something like this: If Bush and co. insist on paint the complex world of international politics in a black and white 'we're the good guys, they are the bad guys' way, then it's comprehenseible for the rest of the world to held them in a higher standard. And no, behading people doesn't excuse the torture of randomly picked persons nor viceversa.
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Post by Glance A'Lot on Jun 17, 2005 13:28:24 GMT
Hmmm -
Is the destruction of two buildings, with 3.000 innocent deads, an excuse to 'free' a nation from an oppressive government, which one helped create in the first place when fighting 'the big enemy', and which caused tenfold the collateral damage?
Is assuming the role of 'world police' , because it 'has to be done' and nobody else will (or can), an excuse for openly exploiting the resources of the 'freed' country, to pay the expenses a good way to earn (!) respect?
Is it OK that 5% of the world population use 25% of the world energy, but refuse to ratify the Kyoto Protocol, because it is not in the interest of the nation and its industry?
Could it be that America's image suffers from the appearance that too easily a quick and dirty solution is sought, and alternatives are not really exploited? America is a young nation, that has grown very rapidly, and as such is impatient, ego-centric, emotional - like a teenager in puberty?
Think of one single fact, that explains to some extent the reluctance of Europeans to go to war - in each and every family in Germany and most of western and central Europe there are surviving members with first hand experiences of the bitter consequences of war. Be it being bombed out, having lost relatives, or having been captive - it's only our grandparents' generation. A common experience the American people simply has not (thankfully so!), but which - imo - explains a difference in attitude.
On a more general scale - the image of Americans as people is not a bad one. Many, many charitable and generous acts have been accomplished - which unfortunately are tainted by a hyppocritical government.
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Post by janggut on Jun 20, 2005 5:14:50 GMT
aye aye, Glance. i have the same thought as u do.
make no mistake; i love americans but i don't like their government.
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Post by Terrordar on Jun 20, 2005 5:29:04 GMT
Americans are nice for the most part, no dobut.
However, the fact they are ruled by a corrupt government only make them more enemies and less friends.
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Post by janggut on Jun 20, 2005 6:15:04 GMT
which is why it is very sad for me as i have family members who are americans. not to mention american friends (one of them is Shantara).
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Post by Sir Ped of Ro on Jun 20, 2005 10:35:45 GMT
I agree, we live in a paradoxical world don't we The rest of the world can burn our flags, behead our people on world wide tv, destroy our bibles, and anything else we may imagine, but if it is reported that a page of the Koran is damaged in any way, we have commited the unpardonable sin, go figure..and supposedly thinking Americans line up with an indignate justification that we have somehow offended the rest of the world, but are we not justified in being offended by the way the world looks at us? Notwithstanding T you are right with the pic.. Yes we live/see in a paradoxal world...a limited/subjective/partial world...just look at some of your comments: - burning your flags and behead your people. burning flags and killing human beings (yes i said human beings, not your or anyone else people's). it's horrible i totally agree with you of course. - "destroy our bibles" !!! now the bibles are also american ones?! maybe you didn't write it proposelly, but it's funny how in your speech/comments the division good/bad, yours/mine, etc... i really think it's a cultural behaviour/defense. but it doesn't make it less harmful/offensive. - talking about the koran or any other religious document/book...again if you want "unpardonable sins" we can talk about some of the different USA government actions (i say USA not as a way of attacking/criticizing a specific country, but because it's your view - one side - point/speech). people don't need a specific ID card to be inhuman, either they be american, portuguese or whatever... - you as a people have the right to be offended in whatever way you feel like, it's your right/opinion/perspective...and it's a good thing, i think. too bad people/a population always end up paying for the ignorance/stupidity and the crimes (yes i said crimes) of their governments. regards, Pedro.
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Post by Sir Ped of Ro on Jun 20, 2005 11:10:35 GMT
E.
"...It is inevitable that the greatest military power in the world cannot invade much smaller and far weaker countries for any reason - good or bad - without looking like a bully and a tyrant..."
i agree/share your view...but it this case, nowadays, people are shocked due to the true reasons/goals of those actions/invasions, which are far from being legimite, worst is the use/staining of words such as freedom, liberty, human rights along with those goals...and it ain't pretty to see.
regards
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Post by Sir Ped of Ro on Jun 20, 2005 11:14:13 GMT
to everyone...
who used the comments/expression such as "if you were in our shoes you would have done the same...someone must do it...someone had to do the dirty work..."
this is the some of the worst that citizens from democracy can say. it shows blindness and ignorance, sorry. thank god not everyone thinks/acts that way...otherwise human race wouldn't exist it's been a longtime.
regards
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Post by Elliot Kane on Jun 20, 2005 14:39:17 GMT
I agree, Pedro.
It certainly takes a really weird world view to invade, subjugate and destroy another country in order to steal its resources - then claim a great victory for 'freedom'.
The language being used is just one lie after another.
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tragic
Chaosite
Happiness is a cigar called hamlet
Posts: 627
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Post by tragic on Jun 21, 2005 12:38:08 GMT
[/to everyone...
who used the comments/expression such as "if you were in our shoes you would have done the same...
Im not sure i understand this....there is a well known saying in england...power corrupts...absolute power corrupts absolutely....therefore in it were china,england,germany,india...in fact any other country who was in the same posiston as the US they in time(a long period of time) would behave like the US...becuase of the human nature of greed...unless i misunderstood.
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Post by Terrordar on Jun 21, 2005 16:34:20 GMT
Actually Tragic, I understand the balance of power, and based off how I see it, I don't think I would have, at least in THIS case.
I'm not saying I'd be uncorruptable, but this was just a plain out bad move.
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Post by Sir Ped of Ro on Jun 21, 2005 20:27:59 GMT
[/to everyone...
who used the comments/expression such as "if you were in our shoes you would have done the same...Im not sure i understand this....there is a well known saying in england...power corrupts...absolute power corrupts absolutely....therefore in it were china,england,germany,india...in fact any other country who was in the same posiston as the US they in time(a long period of time) would behave like the US...becuase of the human nature of greed...unless i misunderstood. sorry but i totally disagree with that "rigid/formated and (easly) tragic" answer towards the "human nature"... along with the "greed nature" you've mentioned, people also have an interesting/impressive tool at their reach called "a brain"...and everyone is free to use it. it can present some very interesting outcomes... regards
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Post by Dark Phoenix Rising on Jun 21, 2005 20:43:06 GMT
The problem with the absolute power corrupts absolutely is that everyone seems to forget that if you put unless it is accompanied by an equal amount of responsability at the end it makes more sense.
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tragic
Chaosite
Happiness is a cigar called hamlet
Posts: 627
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Post by tragic on Jun 21, 2005 22:56:44 GMT
[/to everyone...
who used the comments/expression such as "if you were in our shoes you would have done the same...Im not sure i understand this....there is a well known saying in england...power corrupts...absolute power corrupts absolutely....therefore in it were china,england,germany,india...in fact any other country who was in the same posiston as the US they in time(a long period of time) would behave like the US...becuase of the human nature of greed...unless i misunderstood. sorry but i totally disagree with that "rigid/formated and (easly) tragic" answer towards the "human nature"... along with the "greed nature" you've mentioned, people also have an interesting/impressive tool at their reach called "a brain"...and everyone is free to use it. it can present some very interesting outcomes... regards Yes people do have a brain...but dont you think that the logical process of the brain can be hampered by the insecurities of the individual??? E.g i have to award a job to a guy...10 guys come in and i naturally choose the best becuase my brain says so. Now assume that i am a racist...and the posistion i offered it to is a guy who has the same race as me...but my brian tells me that he was not the best guy but aother guy of a different race. What has happened is that my brian is effected by the belief that my race is better then anyone elses...hence my insecurities effect my judgement. Now race is not just the only issue...it can be religon,nationality,personal pride of being no 1(which is the case here with the US). If your no 1 you dont want to lose this posistion,which is why the US justifies its actions on the basis on democracy,freedom and jusitce while at the same time plundering resuorces. That is why most of the oil contratcs went(if not all) to the US. If say China or France could use the oil better would the US allow it? No of course not and hence coming back to what i said earlier....it effects the brain of this individuals concerned in the US becuase as superpower they want to remain no1. Not everyone is insecure and hence i agree that select few countries would have behaved differently.(but not many) Dragonlord: Dont you think that with power comes responsiblity automaticaly?
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Post by janggut on Jun 22, 2005 4:10:15 GMT
power doesn't corrupt. it attracts the corrupt.
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