"Burn" in Hell ??

[ptsteelers]

Ok, question.
Is Hell just a product to scare people into the convictions of the Church?

Hell, as the fiery pit that is so often visualized, was not mentioned in the Bible, in that description, until the New Testament (Mathew??). The Old Testament mentions Hell, sure, but makes no mention as to its description (that I can find) other than “being without God”, or "Without Gods love" or (the closest I can find) "Into the Pit of Hell"

Did the Church use this “Lake of Fire” image to promote itself and gain/obtain followers?

(Of course, if anyone can find, in the Old Testament were it describes Hell in this manner, please share, for I am really interested ... Yes that means you Pop )

[Elliot Kane]

I am certain other members of this forum know better than I, but what I understand the bible to say is that the souls of sinners will be destroyed in a lake of fire - final death, rather than the eternal life promised the faithful.

Can't tell you where it says that, though...

[ptsteelers]

Yea, I know it says that and other things of fright and/or warning, but am really curious why it never says it in the Old Testament ... If in fact that it doesn't of course

[hector]

admin said:

I am certain other members of this forum know better than I, but what I understand the bible to say is that the souls of sinners will be destroyed in a lake of fire - final death, rather than the eternal life promised the faithful.

Can't tell you where it says that, though...

I'm pretty sure that it is in the Book of Revelations.

And no, I can't remember any mention of Hell, as we know it, in the Old Testament

I seem to remember that Hell was espcifically for those souls who didn't accept Christ as their saviour, which of course lead to the problem of what happened to all those righteous souls who died before Christ was born. Leading to some rather...strange dogma, like the Harrowing of Hell. (remember the devil screaming at the end of Gibson's Passion of the Christ? that was it)

[ss]

Interesting question, generates great (and often heated (no pun intended) by various factions. I am completly convinced that the King James Bible is in fact accurate so I use it. Hell is in the OT tons of places, but the OT was translated from Hebrew and the NT was translated from the Aramic into Greek. When King Jimmie wanted a bible for the common man to read the had other English translations available...etc..the point is the word "Hell" in the KJV is the word they use for four (4) different words which mean different things. they just translated it hell and it must be understood in the context in which it is written and applied to the subject matter.
Gehenna (greek) - the place of punishment
Hades (greed) - the abode of the dead
Shoel (hebrew) - the grave, or unseen state
Tartarus (greek) - the place of punishment

Tartarsus only appears once in the bible - II Peter 2:4

Gehenna - Matt 5:22,29 - 10:28 - 18:9 - 23:15,23 - Mark 9:43 - Luke 12:5 - James 3:6

Hades - Matt 11:23 - 16:18 Luke 16:23 - Acts 2:27 - Rev 1:18 - 6:8 - 20:13

Shoel - Numerous times in the OT.

More to follow

[hector]

Of course, every one of those words have a different meaning that what we know as Hell.

In this kind of discussion it has to take into account the influences of other religions have had in Christianity.

BTW, the last official word from the Catholic Church was that Hell wasn't a place of sufferig, rather a place without joy.

[Terrordar]

If hell causes a final death, then who cares?

You won't EXIST to feel anything, that will be it, you no longer exist. You can't really hate it or enjoy it. People fear the idea of a final end, but its very plausable, and if Hell is truly the end (providing the bible is right)... Well gee, Sinners only need be afraid of just not being. You may fear it, but its not capable of really hurting you, you'll be gone, and that will be that.

[ss]

Hell doesn't cause a final death.Read Rev Chapter 20, death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and the dead were judged. death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
It is the lake of fire which is the second death. Hell and the lake of fire are not the same place. Hell is a "holding tank" for the unbeliever until Judgement of that unbeliever at the White Throne. Thats the quick version. Just the biblical facts, not an interpretation of them. ;D

[Glance A'Lot]

Hmm - the original question was 'Is hell a product to scare people into the convictions of the church?'.

All mythologies with a concept of a human soul persisting after death had some concept of 'afterworld'. But not all were a place of punishment, as also not all had a vision of ascension to a higher form.

I think, there is a parallel - only if you have the option to ascending to a 'better life after death', do you need a counterpart, as horrible, fearsome and un-wanted as possible - though easy to achieve.

So, I also think, that the answer to the question is - Yes.

[tragic]

Its interesing to note the if you look at new religous ...i.e christanity and islam you will find that they have similar purposes and they behave in a similar fashion..i.e conversion and belief in hell...

What i tend to do is not to take religon per se but with what was the common thinking process at that period of time.

when christanity started...or when all major religons start...first they
a) convert everone they can into their religon
b) scare them into believing that if you dont worship them you wil go to hell.

If i am not mistaken the older religons of hinduism and juadism dont stress with the two reasons above.....

becuase they are older they have already passed this "phase".

[metokhaesh]

Look at this link:

www.heavendwellers.com/hd_origins_of_the_word_hell.htm

The answers are very good for Christian and Jew alike.

Metok ha'esh

[Elliot Kane]

metokhaesh...

Welcome to the forum

Interesting link, too. Thanks

[metokhaesh]

The same burning fire expression was used for Sodom and Gomorra.
I do not see an eternal burning city today.
The expression ever burning, intended in the original Hebrew, means that the fire is unquenchable until it has consumed all of the fuel feeding it.
Also, Revelations says the smoke of their torment rises up forever and ever.
Scientifically speaking smoke can rise throughout space and time forever,
but it is not the fire that is ever burning.

Metok ha'esh

[Shan]

Hi Metok ha'esh

I'm Shan.

Just wanted to say welcome to Chaos.
It's a really fun place and I hope you like it.


Shan

[ptsteelers]

ss said:

.... Hell is in the OT tons of places,

Yes I understand that, but is it EVER mentioned as the place of eternal torment (physical pain/ burning/ jock itch) that the New Testament describes it as?

And Shoel was the "Resting place" was it not, until Jesus arose and "wooshed" them all away ?? And if Shoel and Hell are the same, then the Church really has mislead countless people for countless years (Not that that is shocking of course)

[metokhaesh]

No, those concepts are misinterpretations.
The Bible never says anything like that.

Yes, sheol is another name for "the grave".

Metok ha'esh

[BJC]

According to the Bible, there is no final death.

Believers spend eternity with God, and sinners spend eternity burning in the lake of fire, with constant torture.

[ptsteelers]

metokhaesh said:

No, those concepts are misinterpretations.
The Bible never says anything like that.

So your answer is "yes, the church has mislead people for centuries"
?

[metokhaesh]

It is easy to understand why.
If you are taught a certain thing and you allow yourself to be spoon fed all of your life without proving things to yourself then believing a fire that burns forever-n-ever is easy to believe.
Look at early history,
We believed the earth was flat.
We believed tomatoes were poisonous.
These kinds of things are limitless.
It is not done on purpose.
It is because they know no better.
If you believe or “do not” believe in something spiritually always back up what you say with quotes as to why.
That does not mean you are right or wrong, but it further edifies the person you are talking to as to why you believe the way you do.
Not to be used as a club, but rather a tool to help each other understand.

I believe the link I gave is self explanatory on the words used here.

Metok ha'esh

[metokhaesh]

I mean this for those who do believe in the Father.

Please, do not get me wrong.
The words I have expressed are not an attack on any belief.
What it should be doing is causing a person to study for themselves the foundation pinnacles of their particular faith.
Why?
Well let's look at it like this.
What if you were all alone with one other person?
No one was around for miles and this person, out of the blue, expressed the yearning to learn about Jesus and your faith.
You had your Bible with you and this person does not want to discuss this with anyone else only you; because, they feel comfortable with you.
But they required Biblical scripture shown to them along with your explanations.
Do you know enough about your particular faith and the scripture that you can help a person understand your beliefs?
Do you have the confidence that you can show them from your own Bible why you believe the way you do, so that it is more than words passing between your lips?
Can you do this without the aid of any other 'human being' to guide you?

It is a sad thing when a non-member can quote scripture and express the foundations of a faith that is not theirs better than that of its own members.
Do not be a Watchtower found wanting.

Metok ha'esh