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Post by ss on Jun 22, 2005 15:29:25 GMT
I keep reading all this stuff about the "Church". What do you mean people when you say the Church?? Do you mean a religious denomination? Do you mean Protestant, Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, What?? When you deal with them all you have is doctrinal statements about what they believe and why they believe it. If however, you are talking about the TRUE Church, that is another matter. Speaking from the assumption that you rely on the biblical definition, you have both: the Body of Christ, made up of true believers trusting in the finished work of Christ on the cross, paying the penalty for sin, and all who put their trust in that work by faith are baptized (spiritually) into the body of Christ which is the church. Now on the other hand, you have denominations, all calling themselves Christian, who have various creeds and etc.. and the requirement to become a member of the EARTHLY church, was to profess the statement of belief in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, be baptized, (in water), signifying to the world and all witnesses that you have been buried in Christ and risen to a new life (spiritually) the flesh is still part of you but you have been spiritually re-born. The "Visible" church was one probably until about 500 AD and denominations of sort started splintering the church till we have what we have today. But they all believe in the creeds espoused by the councils such as "The Nicene Creed", "The Apostle's Creed", "The Athenatious Creed" etc..so there is a basic belief that one must believe to be considered "Christian" and a member of Christ's Church. The Church has ALWAYS had a belief in the reality of a literal hell. If you don't believe it go back and read the early church "Fathers" it is the "enlightened" people who decide that they don't like that concept, so they redefine it to suit whatever their need is. They have a right to do it but they can't say that it is what the church teaches!!
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Post by metokhaesh on Jun 22, 2005 15:54:38 GMT
Clarification, on my part just in case, I never said there was no hell.
I was commenting on its everlasting burning.
Metok ha'esh
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Post by Tsel on Jun 23, 2005 15:47:20 GMT
I feel sorry for young guys on this topic. I mean a guy in his teens his hormones are raging. If he’s a Christian, a lot of religious affiliations pound, like a hammer a message of, you’re going to burn in hell if a guy even touches his self when he uses the bathroom. Good gads some guys are spiritually tormented if they have a wet dream! They think they’re going to burn in hell for a dream they have absolutely no control of. I really think Christian religions need to rethink their ways of getting a message across to their parishioners. Later Tsel
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Post by Elliot Kane on Jun 23, 2005 15:55:23 GMT
My old favourite was the Medieval Christian tradition that 'The mouth of your lover is as the mouth of Hell'. A little extreme, I feel...
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Post by ss on Jun 24, 2005 3:20:53 GMT
.... Hell is in the OT tons of places, Yes I understand that, but is it EVER mentioned as the place of eternal torment (physical pain/ burning/ jock itch) that the New Testament describes it as? And Shoel was the "Resting place" was it not, until Jesus arose and "wooshed" them all away ?? And if Shoel and Hell are the same, then the Church really has mislead countless people for countless years (Not that that is shocking of course) Been busy, but isiah 33:14 and 66:24 portray hell as eternal fire. just a quick 2 in the OT, and of course Jesus told the story in Luke 16:19-31 about the rich man and the beggar Lazarus, both died and Lazarus went to Abraham's bosom (paradise) and the rich man went to hell. the rich man could see Abraham "and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this FLAME." To shorten it, there is a gulf fixed at death which is the final arbitrator, and the point was that you have to settle the account before death, but remember, Jesus is telling a story (not a parable) and Abraham is an OT person, so the story takes place in that realm and it clearly shows Jesus saying that it is torment and flame.
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Post by ss on Jun 24, 2005 3:41:06 GMT
I am certain other members of this forum know better than I, but what I understand the bible to say is that the souls of sinners will be destroyed in a lake of fire - final death, rather than the eternal life promised the faithful. Can't tell you where it says that, though... I'm pretty sure that it is in the Book of Revelations. And no, I can't remember any mention of Hell, as we know it, in the Old Testament I seem to remember that Hell was specifically for those souls who didn't accept Christ as their Saviour, which of course lead to the problem of what happened to all those righteous souls who died before Christ was born. Leading to some rather...strange dogma, like the Harrowing of Hell. (remember the devil screaming at the end of Gibson's Passion of the Christ? that was it) Actually the answer to that is that Hell and Abraham's Bosom (Paradise) were "holding tanks" for unbelievers and believers respectively. When Christ arose and ascended, He took the souls in paradise with him to Heaven with him. The NT teaches when a believer dies now they go straight to heaven but Hell still exists and will until the White throne Judgment in Revelations where the unbeliever will be judged and cast into the Lake of Fire for eternity. Hell and the Lake of Fire are not the same place.Rev 19 says the beast and the false prophet were cast into the lake of fire, Rev 20 says that the devil was cast into the lake of fire, and death and hell were cast into the lake of fire, and whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. a lot of cast in there huh? Howsoever, No doubt in my mind that the church, meaning organized churches have and will continue to use and manipulate people thorough fear of hell and damnation, what a way to control people. If you think a human being can be elevated to speak for God and that you must obey him, then you have just been had! History is full of it. Just look around to see what is being done in the name of God.
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Post by ptsteelers on Jun 26, 2005 12:21:16 GMT
Been busy, but isiah 33:14 and 66:24 portray hell as eternal fire.... Yep, there it is. (In a way). It still never mentions Hell as the Place where the burning transpires, but at least it does mention the burning aspect that I was searching for in the OT, although not in the "Burn in Hell" manner that I was looking for. And what the hell did I just say ??
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Post by ptsteelers on Jun 26, 2005 12:24:44 GMT
I keep reading all this stuff about the "Church". What do you mean people when you say the Church?? Do you mean a religious denomination? Do you mean Protestant, Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, What?? I mean organized religion. Any Denomination. Any belief. Now when I ask a question about Jesus, and mention the Church ... obviously that narrows it down to the religions that believe/practice in his words/works.
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Post by ss on Jun 26, 2005 17:54:10 GMT
I keep reading all this stuff about the "Church". What do you mean people when you say the Church?? Do you mean a religious denomination? Do you mean Protestant, Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, What?? I mean organized religion. Any Denomination. Any belief. Now when I ask a question about Jesus, and mention the Church ... obviously that narrows it down to the religions that believe/practice in his words/works. OK, at least now I know the initial question concerns Christianity and it's teaching on Hell. You might look at it as a progressive unfolding of revelation on the issue...for instance, the OT prophets foretold the birth of Christ and still didn't live to see the reality of it or the understanding of it, yet the people who were alive when he came mostly rejected him while they claimed to be believers in God AND the OT which they said they believed to be His revelation of Himself? Christ came and declared Himself to be God in the flesh and did the work that people agreed that only God could do, and they still denied it could possible be true (most of them). But, if it is true, (the NT) then everything Christ expounds on Hell or the unfolding clarification of it has to be true or false...it doesn't leave any area for fence riding...If Christ ever told a lie then he could not be whom He claims to be and should be rejected as a hypocrite and a liar...and no-one should ever interested in Him other than just another blip in history..Funny that we even use BC and AD in the time frame we use? ..But don't forget, Hell and the Lake of Fire are NOT the same critter....
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