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Post by Glance A'Lot on Feb 26, 2009 14:31:02 GMT
So I have been (t)asked to start this thread I have generalized the topic from 'generals' to 'military leaders' - I think, the more we come into modern times, sea-, air- and combined forces warfare should not be separated. We would look at those who had control and/or* command over strategy and tactics of their campaign(s). {* I will cite at least one where that difference will come into effect} Being victorious will certainly be influential in your assessment, but do not hesitate to mention the less successful, if their achievements warrant credit to their ability (There are those!). We will look for innovative tactics as much as for other factors that had a lasting influence on later military development. (We're not normally looking at technological advances though, as the military 'in the field' is traditionally a late adopter) And we do not seek the 'Best of all times', as that is hardly comparable in view of technological and social advances. Political/diplomatical achievements may well be considered in the miltary assessment (not only because some candidates were rulers). Aside fom any lasting effect on military tactical development we will consider the candidates around their lifespan (not too much earlier or later) - so they should be an outstanding figure in their time. (There are some pretty competitive aeras). And historic aera as well as geographic theatre (kind of enemies) should be a factor. Anything I missed? Otherwise, go ahead!
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Post by Glance A'Lot on Feb 26, 2009 16:23:44 GMT
Here are some of my (probably less prominent) personalities:
Epaminondas (Greek (Theban)) ca. 404 BC–362 BC
Extant biographies of Epaminondas universally describe him as one of the most talented men produced by the Greek city-states in their final 150 years of independence. In military affairs he stands above every other tactician in Greek history, with the possible exception of Philip of Macedon, although modern historians have questioned his larger strategic vision. His innovative strategy at Leuctra allowed him to defeat the vaunted Spartan phalanx with a smaller force, and his novel decision to refuse his right flank (‘staggered line of attack’ in later tactic books) was the first recorded successful use of a battlefield tactic of this sort. Many of the tactical changes that Epaminondas implemented would also be used by Philip of Macedon, who in his youth spent time as a hostage in Thebes and may have learned directly from Epaminondas himself.
Henri de la Tour d'Auvergne, Vicomte de Turenne, mostly simply referred to as Turenne (French) 11 September 1611 – 27 July 1675, marshal (later marshal general, only 1 of 6 ever appointed) of France
Turenne's most eloquent countrymen wrote his éloges, and Montecucculi himself exclaimed: "II est mort aujourd'hui un homme qui faisait honneur à l'homme !" (A man is dead today who did honor to Man!) Napoleon recommended all soldiers to "read and re-read" the campaigns of Turenne as one of the great captains. His fame as a general rivaled that of any other in Europe at a period when the populace studied war more critically than ever before, for his military character epitomized the art of war of his time. Strategic caution and logistic accuracy, combined with brilliant dash in small combats and constancy under all circumstances - of success or failure - perhaps emerge as the salient points of Turenne's genius for war. Great battles he avoided. "Few sieges and many combats" he used as his own maxim. And, unlike his great rival Condé, who appeared as brilliant in his first battle as in his last, Turenne improved day by day He operated essentially as a commander of regular armies. He spent his life with the troops; he knew how to win their affection; he tempered a severe discipline with rare generosity, and his men loved him as a comrade no less than they admired him as a commander. Thus, though Condé's genius appeared far more versatile, Turenne's genius best represents the art of war in the 17th century. For the small, costly, and highly-trained regular armies, and for the dynastic warfare of the age of Louis XIV, Turenne functioned as the ideal army leader
Sébastien Le Prestre, Seigneur de Vauban and later Marquis de Vauban (French) May 15, 1633–March 30, 1707
Commonly referred to as Vauban, he was a Marshal of France and the foremost military engineer of his age, famed for his skill in both designing fortifications and in breaking through them. In the first he shaped the face of cities up to today (12 groups of fortified buildings and sites along the western, northern and eastern borders of France that were designed by Vauban were added to the list of UNESCO World Heritage Sites in 2008); in the latter his scientific approach to breaching fortresses (including such built in accordance with his own designs) remained basically valid for the next two centuries. {On a less military note, he was a prolific writer on many subjects, including forestry, pig breeding, monetary policy, and colonisation, Vauban was made an honorary member of the French Academy of Sciences. (He even correctly estimated and plotted out the growth of Canada, predicting that its population would be about 30 million by the year 2000). Dismayed by the inefficiency of the French fiscal system, Vauban's 1707 tract called for the repeal of all taxes and the imposition of a single tax on all land and trade with no exemptions. His book was condemned by the royal government because it had been published without obtaining royal permission. Nevertheless, his ideas inspired later Enlightenment economists, such as Forbonnais, Mirabeau and the Physiocrats.}
Louis Alexandre Berthier, (French) February 20, 1753 Versailles – June 1, 1815 1st Duc de Wagram, 1st Duc de Valengin, 1st Sovereign Prince de Neuchâtel, marshal of France, Vice-Constable of France
Berthier was not a great commander, but an extra-ordinary Chief-of-Staff. Whatever merit as a general he may have possessed was completely overshadowed by the genius of his master Napoleon, whom he served in this function from the Italian campaign in 1796 until Napoleon’s first abdication in 1814. His title to fame is that he understood and carried out that master's directions to the minutest detail. It is said that the lack of his support was one of the factors contributing to the defeat at Waterloo. In that, while he did not have command over the strategy, he certainly did have control over its implementation. There’s reason to believe that Napoleon would have been a less successful commander without Berthier (and that Napoleon recognized that).
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Post by Elliot Kane on Feb 26, 2009 17:32:19 GMT
So we're doing the fairly obscure ones? OK, I need to rethink a few things before I start posting a great deal...
However, I will start with:
Thomas, Lord Cochrane: Inventor, parliamentarian and sometimes mercenary, Admiral Cochrane has inspired many works of fiction through his daring naval exploits (The characters of Jack Aubrey and Horatio Hornblower being the most famous). If he hadn't been permanently at daggers drawn with the British establishment, he would certainly have been as revered as his contemporary, Lord Nelson. Being a man of high principle, however, in an age where the establishment was thoroughly corrupt, he was not popular. The French nicknamed him 'The Sea Wolf' and were in terror of him for good reason. After being thrown out of the RN, he served with the rebel navies of Chile, Brazil, Peru and Greece during their fights for independence, obliterating their enemies on the seas and making significant contributions towards their final victories. If Nelson is the greatest Admiral in history, Cochrane is surely the greatest captain. The RN let him back in towards the end of his life, promoting him to Admiral. Presumably on the basis that he was vastly too good to allow to remain in foreign service.
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Post by Glance A'Lot on Feb 26, 2009 18:26:49 GMT
That's a real good one, Elliot! And yes, I thought the more 'obscure' would be more interesting and deserving to be brought to attention. 'Everybody' knows the big names, at least by name, but few really stood alone in their context. By the way if anybody has a name to throw in and obtain an opinion, or question why he is significant - feel free.
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Post by Elliot Kane on Feb 26, 2009 18:35:35 GMT
True. Was good thinking there, Glance Gives everyone a chance to put forward their favourites, too
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Post by Elliot Kane on Feb 26, 2009 19:11:23 GMT
Sir John Moore: it is no exaggeration to say that the contribution of the British Light Infantry regiments to the defeat of Napoleon was extremely significant. Sir John Moore is the man who came up with the idea and created the training for them which is still used today. A man ahead of his time indeed!
Yet Moore was not only a great trainer and innovator - he was also a strategist of high order. Assured by the Spanish of their full support in driving Napoleon from the Iberian Peninsula, the British army was despatched under Moore to aid our then allies in their fight for independence. Yet the support promised was not forthcoming and Moore was forced to retreat back through Portugal (Then as now an ally) by a vastly superior French army. Outmaneuvering even the great Napoleon himself, he successfully pulled his army back to Corunna, where his troops were forced to fight a last desperate battle with the French under Marshal Soult. Sadly, Moore was killed in the fighting, but died only after having won the battle.
With his men safely embarked for Britain once more, the British army lived to fight another day. A pyrrhic victory to be sure, with the loss of so great a general.
It is a mark of both the respect in which Moore was held by his enemies and the nobility of Marshall Soult that the latter erected a monument to his fallen foe upon the spot where he was buried.
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Post by cleglaw on Feb 27, 2009 15:47:00 GMT
Jan Žižka - Blind
- Never lost a battle
- Innovative tactician
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Post by Glance A'Lot on Feb 27, 2009 17:55:11 GMT
Taciturn he is, our friend Cleglaw... ...or provocative in making us look for more details ourselves Jan Žižka z Trocnova a Kalicha (John Zizka of Trocnov) (c. 1360 – 1424), Czech general and Hussite leader {as my father said about my mother's native language: "It's a throat disease..." Trust me, you do not even want to try to correctly pronounce that name.} Was actually only blind on one eye for the majority of his career, but did indeed fight on as commander after losing his second eye in 1421. Outstanding military feat in late 1421 (being completely blind then): Žižka, who was at the head of the united armies of Tábor and Prague, was trapped but managed to execute what some historians call the first mobile artillery manoeuver in history and broke through Sigismund's army - which shortly thereafter he defeated completely. He died of the plague at Přibyslav (October 11, 1424). According to chronicler Piccolomini Žižka's dying wish was to have his skin used to make drums so that he might continue to lead his troops even after death. His enemies said that "The one whom no mortal hand could destroy was extinguished by the finger of God". Very interesting character that!
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Post by ss on Feb 27, 2009 22:59:26 GMT
Henry V...1387-1422
Was an interesting warrior King of England..
Shakespear of course made him more famous couple of hundred years later....with his rendition of the "St Crispins Day" speech.
Interesting to note that 3 major battles were fought on that day..
Henry of course with the Battle of Agincourt 1415
The Charge of the Light Brigade 1854 (Battle of Balaklava-Crimea War)
Battle of Leyte Gulf 1944.
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Post by cleglaw on Feb 27, 2009 23:40:48 GMT
More on Jan Žižka - His army consisted of farmers and peasants
- Farm wagons were parked wheel-to-wheel forming a circle with horses and soldiers safely inside the enclosure. The outlying side of the wagon was armored with thick wooden planks, with holes through which soldiers could shoot pistols and crossbows. Gaps between wagons housed small cannons. At a signal, wagons could be pulled apart and the Hussite cavalry could ride out to fight the enemy in a surprise flanking attack.
- first ever use of artillery in field operations
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Post by Glance A'Lot on Mar 1, 2009 13:50:11 GMT
I've done some hard thinking on the rather difficult subject of German military leaders of the 20th century. I came up with two I think worth mentioning:
Paul Emil von Lettow-Vorbeck (20 March 1870 - 9 March 1964)l, the commander of the German East Africa campaign in WW I, the only colonial campaign of that war where Germany remained undefeated.
Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck was a daring yet prudent commander who showed uncanny ability to fight a guerilla war in unfamiliar terrain. He was respected as a brilliant soldier and a first rate leader by his white officers, non-commissioned officers and Askaris – and beyond that, by his foes.
The East African campaign then was essentially about a “modestly immense Allied army” that was engaged by “a midget German force led by an obscure Prussian officer who could have conducted post-graduate courses in irregular warfare tactics for Che Guevara, General Giap and other more celebrated but far less skilled guerilla fighters. Lettow-Vorbeck’s exploits in the African bush have come down “as the greatest single guerilla operation in history, and the most successful”.
On the morning of 14 November, the British magistrate Hector Croad appeared under a white flag and delivered a message informing him of the armistice (Three days earlier). Lettow-Vorbeck agreed to a cease-fire and was instructed by the British to march north to Abercorn (now Mbala) to surrender his undefeated army, which he did there on 23 November. His remaining army then consisted of 30 German officers, 125 German non-commissioned officers and other enlisted ranks, 1,168 Askaris and some 3,500 porters (The Portuguese and British troops chasing him amounted to some 45.000 men).
His leadership of native African troops was outstanding as displayed in these three examples: - After the battle of Tanga early in the war, the (defeated) British General Aitken apologized for shelling the hospital. The streets of Tanga were strewn with dead and wounded. German doctors and their African orderlies worked tirelessly and "with a fine disregard for their patients’ uniforms". - It was a measure of the Askaris’ loyalty to their commander that they accepted the cuts and did not desert en masse. The German Askaris were by far the most loyal as well as the most effective, and it all went back to von Lettow’s brand of discipline, which bound him and his German officers as much as his black soldiers. - In the year of von Lettow-Vorbeck’s death, 1964, the West German Bundestag voted to fund the back pay for the Askaris still alive. Of the 350 old men who gathered, only a handful could produce the certificates that von Lettow had given them in 1918. The German banker who had brought the money came up with an idea. As each claimant stepped forward, he was handed a broom and ordered in German to perform the manual of arms. Not one man failed the test.
After the war, he and Jan C. Smuts (One of his main antagonists during the war) formed a lasting friendship.
Adolf "Dolfo" Joseph Ferdinand Galland (19 Mar 1912 – 9 Feb 1996) was a World War II German fighter pilot and commander of Germany's fighter force (General der Jagdflieger) from 1941 to 1945.
One of the 27 highest decorated soldiers, he was a professional that served in the Luftwaffe from its earliest inception in 1933 until the very end of the war. Skill and the 'luck of the competent' let him survive even though he was by no means a 'desk soldier' in spite of his General's duty as of 1941. He scored 104 certified victories in 705 combat missions, all against Western Allies, the last seven as late as 1945 on the Messerschmitt 262, making him the first jet fighter ace.
Typically open, blunt and a consistent critic of his superiors, as the war progressed, Galland soon became distanced from the Nazi hierarchy, who no longer tolerated his outspoken views. {famous became his response to Göring on the question what his pilots needed to win the battle (of Britain in 1940). Galland replied: "I should like an outfit of Spitfires for my squadron".} While patriotic, he increasingly found himself at odds with them over how they ran the war. In January 1945, he was finally relieved of his command and put under house arrest.
Through the postwar years Galland built up lasting respect and friendship with many of his former adversaries, particularly Robert Stanford Tuck, Johnnie Johnson, and Douglas Bader. His autobiography 'The First And The Last' (published 1954) was widely translated (and is worth reading!).
Both of these men have been professional soldiers, who in the bitterness of war gave and earned respect to and from their enemies - not the least, because they did not forget, that on the other side of their visor was a man as themselves.
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Post by Elliot Kane on Mar 1, 2009 19:22:01 GMT
Germany had more great generals than any other nation in the last century, Glance. Don't be afraid to list them, please. The majority by far fought for Germany, not any particular leader. I think we all know that I'll get to the (very) few Brits when I have more time. Need to do a bit of looking up to be sure of my facts for some of them
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Post by ss on Mar 1, 2009 21:16:10 GMT
I can give you one of my favorite "unsung" British Generals EK... Major General Robert (Roy) Elliott Urquhart, CB, DSO (28 November 1901 - 13 December 1988) He was in charge of the British 1st Airborne Division during Operation Market Garden. In 1977 Sean Connerly played him in the movie "A Bridge To Far" "For nine days Urquhart's division fought UNSUPPORTED against armoured units of the II SS Panzer Corps. Suffering increasingly heavy casualties, the British airborne forces desperately held on to an ever-shrinking defensive perimeter until orders were received for the remnants of the division to withdraw across the Rhine on 25 September. During these nine days of heavy fighting the 1st Airborne Division had lost three-quarters of its strength. Shattered as a fighting formation, the division was withdrawn to the UK and never saw action in World War II again. He was awarded with the Bronze Lion for his command." The Bronze Lion is the Netherlands 2nd highest award for bravery and leadership.
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Post by Elliot Kane on Mar 1, 2009 21:38:54 GMT
Very brave the lot of them, but still a fail. I'm thinking more of people like Orde Wingate who created the Chindits and was instrumental in driving the Japanese out of Burma through his use of highly unorthodox guerrilla tactics and Sir Archibald Stirling who created the SAS.
Both are lesser known names, but both were hugely important in winning WW2 for the Allies. Stirling's legacy, especially, continues to terrify Britain's enemies today.
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Post by Glance A'Lot on Mar 1, 2009 22:33:05 GMT
Germany had more great generals than any other nation in the last century, Glance. Don't be afraid to list them, please.
It's not that I'm afraid, rather critical. There was a strong tradition in formal and theoretical military education, which certainly was state of the art. That emphasis is not in itself a complimentable achievement.
For WW I one could let it stand as Prussian tradition - for WW II that 'expertise' had been specifically assembled and preserved in that tiny army the victorious allies allowed. The Reichswehr was kept a-political and certainly was very conservative. A lot of those who were General rank at the beginning of WW II were not known as ardent supporters of the Weimar Republic - and saw the rising Hitler not with unfriendly eyes. While not active supporters, they were nonetheless rather 'imperial' than republican.
On the other hand, I must concede, that the 'political soldier', in our army named the 'citizen in uniform' is an invention of the post-war period, a concept more likely to be efficient in an army of draftees, than in a professional one.
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