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Hey SS
Jul 17, 2009 2:13:06 GMT
Post by ss on Jul 17, 2009 2:13:06 GMT
Also, SS, would you mind toning down on the details a little and explaining a little on what they mean? Things like "spiritual and physical death" are all verily confusing. And eh, gimme some time to find a copy of the Bible. -_-;; You're referring to the King James version, right? But you're NOT basing your thoughts on the exact words but the overall concepts, huh? Got your copy of the Bible yet...?? Yes, unless otherwise noted, I always use the King James.. Physical life and death is self explanatory... Spiritual life and death is something else.. We believe that mankind is made up of Body, Soul, and Spirit..we are triune.. You can not survive if you are physically dead, but you can survive if you are spiritually dead...you just can't commune with God with a dead spirit...which you were born with due to Adams fall...ie...original sin... Until that spirit is regenerated/brought back to life via the "new birth", you can not understand spiritual things nor can you understand the revelations of God of Himself....ie the bible...etc..
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Hey SS
Jul 17, 2009 15:55:19 GMT
Post by The Sonar Chicken on Jul 17, 2009 15:55:19 GMT
And oops, I'm back! Sorry, was relieving my stress by eating large amounts of cake and reading horror novels. ;D I literally had to sort of stop myself from reading up anything else about politics and so on. Yeah, I got an electronic version. ^^ The print in most paper Bibles is a wee too small for my eyes. ;D It's the "King James Version" and not the "New King James Version", right? You'll have to give me some time to like read through over 4, 000 pages of text. ;D Ahhh thanks for the info about the "triumvirate" thingy. That part was always confusing 'cos lots of Christian articles and whatever would mention "three", "triumvirate", etc. Again, thanks for the information about "sin". Okay, "Original sin" = "Eating from tree about Good and Evil". Ehh... I guess Adam and Eve were meant to remain pure, eh? So, you mean that a person is spiritually dead until his "new birth", hmm? Wait... so err... who was the "Man" who laid with Virgin Mary? God? Blood atonement?! You uhm... mean that they slice your finger and let the blood drop into a Chalice containing wine/water? Yeesh... so that was no Hollywood take on Christian ritual but the real thing.
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Hey SS
Jul 17, 2009 16:10:30 GMT
Post by Glance A'Lot on Jul 17, 2009 16:10:30 GMT
Ahhh thanks for the info about the "triumvirate" thingy.'Triunite' (Tri-Union), not triumvirate (three men governing seldom becomes a union...)
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Hey SS
Jul 17, 2009 16:51:10 GMT
Post by ss on Jul 17, 2009 16:51:10 GMT
Ahhh thanks for the info about the "triumvirate" thingy.'Triunite' (Tri-Union), not triumvirate (three men governing seldom becomes a union...) Triune....Three persons, one God, the trinity...boy does this one generate debate... ;D
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Hey SS
Jul 17, 2009 16:53:13 GMT
Post by ss on Jul 17, 2009 16:53:13 GMT
And oops, I'm back! Sorry, was relieving my stress by eating large amounts of cake and reading horror novels. ;D I literally had to sort of stop myself from reading up anything else about politics and so on. Yeah, I got an electronic version. ^^ The print in most paper Bibles is a wee too small for my eyes. ;D It's the "King James Version" and not the "New King James Version", right? You'll have to give me some time to like read through over 4, 000 pages of text. ;D Ahhh thanks for the info about the "triumvirate" thingy. That part was always confusing 'cos lots of Christian articles and whatever would mention "three", "triumvirate", etc. Again, thanks for the information about "sin". Okay, "Original sin" = "Eating from tree about Good and Evil". Ehh... I guess Adam and Eve were meant to remain pure, eh? So, you mean that a person is spiritually dead until his "new birth", hmm? Wait... so err... who was the "Man" who laid with Virgin Mary? God? Blood atonement?! You uhm... mean that they slice your finger and let the blood drop into a Chalice containing wine/water? Yeesh... so that was no Hollywood take on Christian ritual but the real thing. Not the New KJV, the old one...and I advise to forget the OT and stick to the NT for the time being...would read Luke and Acts...about 3 or 4 times, then you would have a handle on Christs life and the start of the church...
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Hey SS
Jul 17, 2009 17:39:17 GMT
Post by The Sonar Chicken on Jul 17, 2009 17:39:17 GMT
Wow, the OT is ... ... a lot of text!!!! A lot a lot of details about the beginning... my eyes. I'll probably skim through it since it's just detail after detail: the important thing is knowing that God created the universe(and all the things and life in it), that man and woman was made and their original sin, the sin that their descendants committed. That god saw a lot of wrongness in earth and thus decided to wipe the slate clean but decided to spare noah and his kin and 2 of every forms of lives, etc. I'm currently at Noah's ark btw. And yes, it is all very interesting. ;D Edit: Almost 4 a.m. and I'm about 17++ chapters into Genesis: 54 out of 4153 pages. Sheez, just why didn't they learn how to summarise a little?
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Hey SS
Jul 17, 2009 18:44:37 GMT
Post by The Sonar Chicken on Jul 17, 2009 18:44:37 GMT
Ahhh thanks for the info about the "triumvirate" thingy.'Triunite' (Tri-Union), not triumvirate (three men governing seldom becomes a union...) Triune....Three persons, one God, the trinity...boy does this one generate debate... ;D Glance and ss: guess I'll just put it as "three-in-one" then.
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Hey SS
Jul 18, 2009 6:51:48 GMT
Post by janggut on Jul 18, 2009 6:51:48 GMT
@ Sonar Chix -> it's not so much of eating from the tree of good & evil, it's more of disobedience, that Adam & Eve (therefore humankind) fall from grace. as for the triune thing, i'm not so sure how it works. then again, who can ever know how God works? but what ss & Glance said of triune , amen to that! i don't think u can find that answer in How Stuff Works website. ;D
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Hey SS
Jul 18, 2009 14:45:15 GMT
Post by The Sonar Chicken on Jul 18, 2009 14:45:15 GMT
janggut: well, yeah... I kinda figured that out when chit-chatting to some Christian over IM. We met though 'cos of manga. And yeah, she told me that the apple is only a representation 'cos we don't know what "fruit" it was. And also, I wouldn't be surprised if the entire thing was a "concept" and mercifully shortened/conceptualised for the masses, like how ya do in plays and books. Ahaha ... all the confusion and triune thing... oh well. Hmmm... I may not be up to reading the Bible over the next few days. Someone in the family effing insisted on making dumplings without telling the rest of us. ;_____; @#$#$ I just spent 3 hours peeling and cleaning chestnuts with a fork. >>;; Edit: it's 3.06 a.m. I'm on Chapter 24. 20++ more chaps of Genesis to go. ;D Having this is oh so useful 'cos I'd problems deciphering some of the words: thou, thee, thine, rainment, etc., etc. av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-dictionary/kjv-dictionary-index.htmlBtw, what is the big deal with all that "brother marrying sister" and so on? Did they mean it literally or conceptually like 'cos they're all offspring of Adam and Eve, so they're all related in a sense?
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Hey SS
Jul 19, 2009 2:54:24 GMT
Post by ss on Jul 19, 2009 2:54:24 GMT
Wow, the OT is ... ... a lot of text!!!! A lot a lot of details about the beginning... my eyes. I'll probably skim through it since it's just detail after detail: the important thing is knowing that God created the universe(and all the things and life in it), that man and woman was made and their original sin, the sin that their descendants committed. That god saw a lot of wrongness in earth and thus decided to wipe the slate clean but decided to spare noah and his kin and 2 of every forms of lives, etc. I'm currently at Noah's ark btw. And yes, it is all very interesting. ;D Edit: Almost 4 a.m. and I'm about 17++ chapters into Genesis: 54 out of 4153 pages. Sheez, just why didn't they learn how to summarise a little? Actually Sonar....Noah took 2 PAIRS (male and female) on each unclean animal into the ark, but he took 7 pairs of each "clean" animal... But yes, the OT does get boring....the only way I could ever stick to it was to be searching for something...or studying a specific thing...when I was searching I would read it over and over until I found what I was looking for...It was not boring that way...I have always had a hard time to just sit down and read straight through the OT.... Now the NT on the other hand, I can read it over and over again and never get tired of studying it.....also, the NT is the key to understanding the OT.........and they could be and should be more properly labeled the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.
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Hey SS
Jul 19, 2009 3:31:46 GMT
Post by ss on Jul 19, 2009 3:31:46 GMT
Ahhh thanks for the info about the "triumvirate" thingy. That part was always confusing 'cos lots of Christian articles and whatever would mention "three", "triumvirate", etc. Again, thanks for the information about "sin". Okay, "Original sin" = "Eating from tree about Good and Evil". Ehh... I guess Adam and Eve were meant to remain pure, eh? So, you mean that a person is spiritually dead until his "new birth", hmm? Wait... so err... who was the "Man" who laid with Virgin Mary? God? Blood atonement?! You uhm... mean that they slice your finger and let the blood drop into a Chalice containing wine/water? Yeesh... so that was no Hollywood take on Christian ritual but the real thing. I would not use the word "laid" with the Virgin Mary, as a man would lay with a woman, but yes, God the Holy Spirit.... The Scripture in Matthew simply says "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was in this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost" Luke explains in more detail. "And in the sixth month (of the pregnacy of Elizabeth...John the Baptist's mother) the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, To a Virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.--------------and the angel said unto her, Fear not Mary; for thou hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.----------------Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." Luke 1: 26-35 (with some missing) Blood Atonement....No, think blood sacrifice....the OT is replete with sacrifices as atonement for sin.....for the Jewish nation...but once a year the High Priest went into the Holy of Holies in the "sanctuary" to make a blood sacrifice for the sins of the people. He had to be purified through ritual and if he was not he would be killed...they tied a rope around him until he came out because the presence of God was in that place and only the High Priest could go in....if he died, they could pull him out with the rope... God required the sacrifice of "innocent blood" (think animals-they were not guilty of the sin) as atonement for sin...once the sacrifice was made, then the "scapegoat" was symbolically loaded with the sin and sent out into the wilderness, signifying that the sin was gone.... This system was never, ever, over, as sin continued, and as the scripture says, "the blood of bulls and goats could never take away sin" (it sort of swept it under the rug..out of sight).. As concerning Christ, willingly became the once and for all blood sacrifice for sin (one that God accepted as complete and forever). Was "innocent blood" as He was not guilty of sin...lived a sinless life because He did not have the Adamic bloodline,....(.blood is passed on by the sperm of the father)...hence, His father being God, Jesus was not subject to the fall, yet he was fully human from his mother...and to verify that it was so, God raised Him from the dead. Another basic doctrine...the blood atonement...go back to the OT when the Angel of Death visited Egypt and took the first born of all the Egyptians (because they would not let the Israelites leave) ....the Jews were to kill their pet lambs..those that they loved, and smear the blood on the outside of the doorposts and the top of the doorway, so when the Death Angel came through, he would see the blood...."when I see the blood I will pass over you" and you will be safe, but if you are not "under the cover of the blood" you will surely die. All of Christianity stands or falls on the Virgin Birth, Blood Atonement and Ressurection of Christ.. Without them, we are of all people most miserable, because nothing exists otherwise to remove the curse of sin and we have no hope in this world or the next...
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Hey SS
Jul 21, 2009 23:27:49 GMT
Post by The Sonar Chicken on Jul 21, 2009 23:27:49 GMT
Okay, so Mary "joined" with God?! Ohh... so it would be like... joining of souls or something? Not sexual but in terms of soul. 2 souls meet and they join(how they do it is unknown to me) and thus another soul is conceived in the physical womb of Mary? (Since God is almighty, anything is possible, right?) Wait... it appears that I've no idea what you mean by "sacrifice"? Do you mean "killing the animal"(draining all the blood from it) or performing a symbolical sacrifice? 'Cos uhm, to me, if the sacrifice dies, it can't be released into the wilderness of Earth? Sorry if I can't put things together... I'm getting a mental overload! ;D Thank you for all the explanations! You rock! Sorry for my quietness over the past few days... anyways, I think they really talk a lot in the OT. I just started on Exodus and Genesis was just a long long chunk about how people committed sin in a myriad of manners. ;D And how people used to do an "exchange" for trade, marriage, forgiveness, for types of food, etc. Old English is hard to figure out too!
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Hey SS
Jul 22, 2009 1:18:33 GMT
Post by ss on Jul 22, 2009 1:18:33 GMT
Okay, so Mary "joined" with God?! Ohh... so it would be like... joining of souls or something? Not sexual but in terms of soul. 2 souls meet and they join(how they do it is unknown to me) and thus another soul is conceived in the physical womb of Mary? (Since God is almighty, anything is possible, right?) Wait... it appears that I've no idea what you mean by "sacrifice"? Do you mean "killing the animal"(draining all the blood from it) or performing a symbolical sacrifice? 'Cos uhm, to me, if the sacrifice dies, it can't be released into the wilderness of Earth? Sorry if I can't put things together... I'm getting a mental overload! ;D Thank you for all the explanations! You rock! Sorry for my quietness over the past few days... anyways, I think they really talk a lot in the OT. I just started on Exodus and Genesis was just a long long chunk about how people committed sin in a myriad of manners. ;D And how people used to do an "exchange" for trade, marriage, forgiveness, for types of food, etc. Old English is hard to figure out too! Trust me, I don't have a CLUE how God impregnated Mary, just that the Scripture says He did. Jesus was born as a human/divine being, so Mary's egg had to be fertilized and she conceived and "brought forth her firstborn"...natural as you and I were born. Might be somewhat deep ATT, but if Jesus had a human father, then he could not be a "saviour" and pay for Sin, He would have NEEDED a saviour himself, just like us....he would have been under the curse of the fall... Sacrifice....?? I will wait until you get far enough into the bible to where they (sacrifices) are initiated as "ritual" and then try to explain....but the pattern was set in Genesis... Adam and Eve, when they saw they were naked and were ashamed, covered themselves with fig leaves. God said ...no no, you cannot provide your own covering for your sin (my words)....I will provide a covering for you....So God covered them with animal skins.... Now those animals had to be killed, skinned and prepared in order for Adam and Eve to wear them...and what is even MORE important, those animals WERE NOT GUILTY of the sin, only Adam and Eve were guilty... This is the first setting of the stage of the "substitutionary sacrifice"....an innocent party taking the penalty for the guilty. Types and symbols are replete throughout the OT, and then you come to the real, final, "once and for all" consumation of what the sacrifices were all pointing to, when Jesus, not guilty, stood in my place and took the penalty for sin...FOR THE WHOLE WORLD...and that penalty was DEATH....Blood had to be shed for payment for sin...that is the way God set it up and required... WHY. ?? I don't know, and it makes people literally foam at the mouth in rage to teach this, but it anyone accepts the tenants of Christianity, then you have to accept this one...it is a cardinal doctrine...the Scripture says...."without the shedding of blood, there is no remission for sin"..
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Hey SS
Jul 26, 2009 8:14:00 GMT
Post by The Sonar Chicken on Jul 26, 2009 8:14:00 GMT
Again, sorry for the lateness of this reply. My comp/browser crashed everytime I was writing a reply. My apologies! ;D Btw, are my questions and answers too annoying or too inquisitive even? ;D Understood that about Jesus. Sacrifice... okay sure. I guess the more examples they had in the Bible, the better. Hmmm... I guess that in the OT, God was a lot more... how do I put it? Harsh and unforgiving and ruling by fear and "power" and those that did not adhere to his rules(testaments, acts, ordinances, etc.) were punished heavily regardless of the depth or nature of their sins? While those who obeyed his rules and his words, they received many blessings and sometimes even the possessions(land, etc., etc.) of those who had defied God? In contrast, I guess God was lot more forgiving in the NT and he allowed for mercy and possibly pardons and allowed for people to redeem themselves? I heard that the change in attitude was partly 'cos of Jesus, his son? Can't recall. ;D
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Hey SS
Jul 26, 2009 11:07:05 GMT
Post by janggut on Jul 26, 2009 11:07:05 GMT
pardon me, but if i may ...... God in the OT & God in the NT is one & the same. what has changed is the manner of redemption, IIRC. it's also work-in-progress of some kind. in the OT, God provided laws for man to govern himself; be it to avoid sin, how to atone for sin, etc. God sees the need to redeem His beloved, humankind. He also knows humankind too well in that they can't do that on their own. OT is like setting up the basic so that when Jesus comes, thus NT, the people are ready for Him & redemption as how He envisions. man, i'm not that good in explaining. anyway, i hope this will help.
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Hey SS
Jul 26, 2009 15:07:26 GMT
Post by ss on Jul 26, 2009 15:07:26 GMT
@ Jang...thanks buddy, good link and was short also..not like mine.. ;D @ Sonar...Don't worry, I have been seriously late in replying to post lately... Be sure to read the link Jang posted...No, there was no difference in the OT and NT in response to sin or redemption. OR in the fact that God is God...think of it this way...If God is, then He still is,... the same,.. and the OT was completed historically at a specific date as well as the NT, and God was in existence before either, and still is today.. In the NT, Paul was debating the same issue with the Jews. They were telling him that circumcision was the defining act that made the difference and that they were decendents of "Father Abraham" ...and special as God's chosen people....but Paul reminded them by asking the question "when was Abraham made righteous, before or after he was circumcised. BEFORE.... and he stated the core perspective..."Abraham BELIEVED God, and it (that belief) was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward NOT reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh NOT, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." (Romans 4:3-5) Catch 22...If you work for it, you can't get it...God would owe it to you as the wages you earned...but if you accept by faith that Christ has "worked" in your behalf (by paying the penalty on the cross)..then God justifies you by FAITH...never by works...because your works would have to ..."outdo"...Christ's work....as a comparrision... So, in the OT, faith and belief in what God had revealed....AT THAT TIME....was what justified one before God...same as today... the fact that a "completed" revelation...to which all things in the OT pointed to is still a matter of faith and belief in that revelation....which is that Jesus was the OT Messiah and redeemer of all those who believe...and the only way by which anyone can stand before God is to be "clothed" in Christ's righteousness, because we will never have any of our own...
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Hey SS
Jul 27, 2009 5:27:35 GMT
Post by janggut on Jul 27, 2009 5:27:35 GMT
ok, now u got me all confused all over again. ;D just kidding!!
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Hey SS
Aug 1, 2009 20:16:56 GMT
Post by The Sonar Chicken on Aug 1, 2009 20:16:56 GMT
Oh okay, so that means: that god well... it's just the methods of dealing with sin, atonement, etc, etc. changed. k got that. Thanks, Jang. Btw, "counted onto" does this mean "counted as"? You completely confused me with this quotation and the explanation too. What does "working" have to do with "belief"? Perhaps... someone can explain that part to me. And I don't get the "ungodly" part either. <---- Sorry, none of this is making any sense to me.
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Hey SS
Aug 2, 2009 0:15:54 GMT
Post by ss on Aug 2, 2009 0:15:54 GMT
Oh okay, so that means: that god well... it's just the methods of dealing with sin, atonement, etc, etc. changed. k got that. Thanks, Jang. Btw, "counted onto" does this mean "counted as"? You completely confused me with this quotation and the explanation too. What does "working" have to do with "belief"? Perhaps... someone can explain that part to me. And I don't get the "ungodly" part either. <---- Sorry, none of this is making any sense to me. The quote is from the KJ Bible...."credited to...as payment on...applied to your debt....debt written off as payed in full... those would read better maybe... OK, let me see if I can give an simple explaination. Most people who believe in God/a god always use the human perspective that the only "fair" way to deal with "sin" would be to keep a document (the books) that records everything you ever did in your life....good and bad.... On the day of "judgement" or ...settle up day....they would weigh your "works" and if the balance tipped to the "good" side then you be granted entrance to "heaven" or whatever other place the other religions call their place....I mean what other way would be better....that way each person would be accountable for their own deeds/works...etc.... That is where human rationale (corrupt as it is due to your fallen nature) lets you justify your own actions as "well, it could be worse, or "I tried my best", what more could god want.?? After all, He created me this way.... The only problem with that is that God doesn't grade on a curve..If you don't get 100 percent, then it is the same a a zero. or...to quote the scripture...."if you break the law in any place, at any time, you are guilty of breaking it all" (adlibed there a bit) Technically, Christ had and "active" and "passive" life...He lived a perfect life, never sinning .....he did not have a sin nature....neither did Adam....which is why He is called the 2nd Adam...whereas Adam sinned and corrupted the human race, Christ lived "sinless" and "restored" the system....but it is based on acknowledgement that you are in need of "restoration" and by believing that Christ's death truly did pay the debt for the human race... So, the standard by which God judges the human race is the "work" that Christ did....He NEVER did sin....so any that you commit means you already flunked....let alone that you were born already prone to sin and with no spiritual reality to what God even wants to begin with... ............Back to it............ My post was that Paul the Apostle was having a discorse with the Pharisees who thought they were special, that they kept the law perfectly, and that everyone else was dodo in the sight of God but them. They even thought that being Abraham's descendents made them special and tried to tell Paul that "good works" or an "act" (that being circumcision) made them righteous in the sight of God. Paul quoted their own Scripture to them showing that Abraham was just another "sinner" on his way to the pit when God called him to leave Ur (Iraq/Persia today) and go to a different land...God told him that his descendents would be as the "stars in the sky"...innumerable...(which they are)... Abraham believed God an did what he told him too...and THAT faith was "counted to him" and made Abraham a "believer"...and that happened a long time before he ever got circumcised....or commited a "work" to try and make it right... Hence, faith, WITHOUT, works, always justifies one before God. Clear now.... ;D
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Hey SS
Aug 2, 2009 2:32:37 GMT
Post by kitty on Aug 2, 2009 2:32:37 GMT
Hey ss, my question has nothing to do with anything that was asked and answered in that thread but since we just had this problem with each other in the other thread... I decided to ask you a question, to make sure I get HOW MUCH you really believe in all of this.
It won't change my thoughts on religion but at least, it could eventually make it clear to me if its worth to actually react on any of your posts or if I just let you be... you.
Here's the question:
If god told you, in your sleep, to kill your first born - would you?
I know, I know, you might think I just want to mock with you but I'm serious.
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