Hey SS

[The Sonar Chicken]

Kitty, why not make a new thread instead? 'Cos this is likely going to start off another huge multi-page discussion, you know... and I really want to keep this one focused on understanding Christianity and not about questioning depth of faith.

[Glance A'Lot]

To keep it within Sonar's thread purpose a short and simple one:

Sacrifice of a human to God is not Christian.
There cannot be any 'sacrifice' of a human after Christ's as it would void his.

(I've already said it, the people writing the scriptures within the context of their perception of the world were very clever - and extremely well versed in debating)

[kitty]

@ Sonar - alright I'll make a seperate thread, sorry

[The Sonar Chicken]

Hey SS, I'll reply soon. Btw, anyone knows a good dictionary for referencing all those Old English?

Currently I'm using this:

av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-dictionary/kjv-dictionary-index.html

[janggut]

hi Sonar Chix, i know this isn't really related to what u want to know now but i thought it might cross your mind somehow.

If the Gospels were mostly based on oral recollections of witnesses, can they be expected to be historically accurate?

sorry i don't know how to address that issue of translating the Old English yet. i'll ask around.

[ss]

Aug 9, 2009 5:28:58 GMT janggut said:

hi Sonar Chix, i know this isn't really related to what u want to know now but i thought it might cross your mind somehow.

If the Gospels were mostly based on oral recollections of witnesses, can they be expected to be historically accurate?

sorry i don't know how to address that issue of translating the Old English yet. i'll ask around.

Good article Jang..

I find that most all of those bible critics all work from a basic reference point of simple "unbelief". I mean by that --their assumptions are from a human reasoning...intelligent as it may be--but they CAN'T comprehend that an omni-etc.. God can intervene when, where, and how He so chooses...so working from that perspective, their "logic" fails to incorporate even the POSSIBILITY that, l ets say, the preservation of the oral stories were kept right in their minds....

I know some argue that that is a matter of faith...ok...could/can be, but catagoracally denying that it is even possible is much worse and makes their "scientific" integrity simply "suck" IMO.

Simply stated....Biased Unbelief...and they call us biased...

[The Sonar Chicken]

Hmmm... I have no comments on that, Janggut. 'Cos the meanings and interpretations of words and phrases can change through time which can affect the accuracy of a recording and as to whether the events described in the Bible were metaphorical(thematic like in various literature works) or not, I don't know. I usually prefer to observe, research, etc. and then arrive at a conclusion, instead of just reading from 1 to 2 links/books though.

These are just my thoughts but IF for example... a god(s) REALLY had a hand in quite a few things regarding evolvement of earth and universe, perhaps Genesis was a metaphorical way of telling people that "I had a hand in creating this". I mean: how easy do you think it would have been to sell someone from at least 1000 years ago, a theory about macrobiology and other scientific aspects, that might still be far beyond the reach of common man in the 21st century and that we might not figure out until a few hundred/thousand years later? I mean: let's put it this way, people often aren't always that tolerant about "concepts they don't understand", right? And sometimes, discussions of or even exposure to certain concepts end rather violently: clashes(angry screaming, physical, personal attacks, threats, etc.) between groups of people, exile, death, war and so on.

Of course, these are thoughts probably bound to change as I understand more about the world, science and faith.

Oh btw, SS, I have NOT given up on reading the Bible. Just that I'd some minor setbacks 'cos mmm... my pc is having some problems.

[ss]

Aug 10, 2009 19:01:47 GMT The Sonar Chicken said:

Oh btw, SS, I have NOT given up on reading the Bible. Just that I'd some minor setbacks 'cos mmm... my pc is having some problems.

Have you thought about the "book" form..??

[The Sonar Chicken]

Yes I have but my family are people who blindly believe in random things(whatever faith, idea, etc. is the most trendy of the week) and I'm not sure if I want to spend days getting into yet another round of fighting with them. We're all equally stubborn people but I've been trying to be more open towards other people's thoughts and ideas, they have not. And they really love to pick fights.

That's why I keep many of my "ideas" either in my head or in an electronic form.

[ss]

Cool......just thought you had forgotten regular books.... ;D

As I said before, I would concentrate on the NT, preferably the book of Luke and Acts...

[The Sonar Chicken]

Ohh... so the rationale for that was: "righteousness is owed to you in a form of a debt, in exchange for your deed" as opposed to "you have to do your best to do everything right" and what you have done: you're judged according to what Christ did. Again, "doing everything right": but "humans are prone to sin, so where does that leave the human race?" Won't that invalidate all of a Christian's hard work, then?

I'm back in full force!

[The Sonar Chicken]

About Paul and the Pharisees:

So, basically... it is not work but the deeds one has done in their entire life, and also, their thoughts/concepts/etc. by which one will be judged according to their righteousness as well as their depth of faith and many other things?

And yes, I DO read regular books.

Oh yes... I apologise, I'm being a bit stubborn but the OT is also kinda interesting to read. I really needed a break from comics, foreign policy, wars, anthropology, etc., etc. and wanted something new.

Oh and Janggut: it's not really Old English but some older form of Modern English.

[Glance A'Lot]

I really needed a break from comics, foreign policy, wars, anthropology, etc., etc.

Oh a good part of those, especially wars, are to be found in the OT!

[ss]

Aug 12, 2009 22:02:26 GMT The Sonar Chicken said:

Ohh... so the rationale for that was: "righteousness is owed to you in a form of a debt, in exchange for your deed" as opposed to "you have to do your best to do everything right" and what you have done: you're judged according to what Christ did. Again, "doing everything right": but "humans are prone to sin, so where does that leave the human race?" Won't that invalidate all of a Christian's hard work, then?

I'm back in full force!

Glad to see ya back ...

Humans aren't just "Prone" to sin, they sin because they are sinners...

The reason I said to read Luke/Acts is it is (and used to be) one continuous book. It relates Lukes witness/investigation on the life of Christ through the death, resurrection, and to the establishment of the church untill the death of Paul.

You can basically learn nothing about Christianity by reading the OT...Let me clarify...

It is our "OLD" testament/covenant...primarily to the Jew in it's original sense...

The NT is a "NEW" testament/covenant. It is centered in the fullfillment of the OT in Christ as the Messiah/Redeemer of Israel and then the rest of humanity.

Historically the OT is great, but to really understand it, you need to read it with NT clarification...then you see the why's and wherefore's....

Apples and Oranges

Deeds to merit "salvation" ...not gonna happen

Deeds to merit "eternal REWARDS...yes

We are talking two different concepts...

Obiedence of the "Law" (works/deeds) can never "save/justify anyone before God.. Galatians 2:16......

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law shall.....NO....flesh be justified."

I noticed you said "Won't that invalidate all of a Christian's hard work, then?"

The emphasis to me is on "Christian's"....not just anyones...

A Christian's good works is "laying up eternal rewards"..which means that they already have TO BE a Christian.

A non-believer concerning Christ, but acknowledges the existence of God, lets say, can not BECOME a Christian by any work at all...the cart would be before the horse.. clearly stated in Ephesians 2:8-10....I will capitalize for emphasis..

For by GRACE are ye saved, through Faith; and that (faith/salvation) not of yourselves; it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast ..(as if he had earned it through his own work). For we (who got saved by that grace) are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus TO DO good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them (good works)"

In other words, we work because we ARE saved, never in order to BECOME saved.


You CANNOT be "saved" by work/works of any kind...

[ss]

Aug 12, 2009 23:11:06 GMT Glance A'Lot said:

I really needed a break from comics, foreign policy, wars, anthropology, etc., etc.

Oh a good part of those, especially wars, are to found in the OT!

Too True Glance

[The Sonar Chicken]

Okay, I'm up to Chapter 4 in the NT now.

NT 3:15 "suffer it to be so now..."

"Then he suffered him"? Huh?

Mmm.. anyone understands those lines?

Oh so it's basically this: to be "saved", one must be a believer in "god" but one must be a Christian. And in order to gain salvation, one must do good deeds which "sometimes may or may not violate the laws laid out in the bible" in order to gain eternal rewards?

[ss]

"Suffer it to be so" means "permit", Allow", Let it be so" it is called "Archaic" english, or the language used in 1611, there are some words that have changed meanings..

Let....now means allow...then it meant "hinder" or delay...

that type of thing..

[ss]

Aug 22, 2009 7:41:19 GMT The Sonar Chicken said:

Oh so it's basically this: to be "saved", one must be a believer in "god" but one must be a Christian. And in order to gain salvation, one must do good deeds which "sometimes may or may not violate the laws laid out in the bible" in order to gain eternal rewards?

No......One can not technically "gain" salvation by ANY means other than trusting Christ as Lord and Saviour.

Any good deed should never violate God's law...that would imply that violating God's law was "good"..

But...yes, belief in God is required, but belief in what He reveals is the issue....in the OT, He promised a "messiah" --"Redeemer".. "Saviour"...and even though they did not live to see it, they believed it, and ACTED UPON THAT BELIEF.....ie...
Abraham leaving his homeland and going to a far country.
Noah building an Ark when it had never rained on the earth.
Moses going back to Egypt to deliever the Israelites.
etc...
It was "fullfilled" in the final revelation of the redeemer coming in the person of Christ. They looked forward to it, and we look backward to it. There will NEVER be another "provision" for sin, and therefore for salvation.

One can embrace various religions, but at their core, they all have some concept of eternity, heaven, hell, etc...and they all imply that either you work for it, earn merit toward it, even reincarnation concepts are work related, in that if you gain enough "Karma" you will actually NOT be reincarnated and reach "Nirvana"....another heavenly concept.

Christanity is unique.....you can do absolutely NOTHING to become a Christian, and therefore go to heaven, other than to BELIEVE (that Christ did the work for you).

NOW....after BECOMING a Christian, you are called to "work" and empowered by the Spirit of God to accomplish "good works"...but they have no bearing on "obtaining"...they are actually the result of HAVING OBTAINED.

Now, I know there are those here who don't believe this, and as KT has expressed, it doesn't make sense to him...well, I can't help that, but I CAN PROVE, without question, that that is exactly what the BIBLE teaches....doesn't mean one has to believe it, or believe that the Bible has any merit for anything...

But...even so, THAT IS WHAT IT TEACHES, and to imply otherwise is blatant ignorance -OF- the subject matter, or blatant antagonism -TOWARD- the subject matter.

The OT taught it, Christ taught it, Paul and the Apostles taught it, Augustine taught it, Luther taught it, Calvin taught it. and the list goes on...and as Christ said..."the Scripture cannot be broken" (refering at that time to the OT).

Salvation is by the "election" of God who has "changed" the human nature of those elected, so when they hear the gospel, they will eventually respond to it. If that "fallen" nature were not changed by a "divine" intervention, NO-ONE would or could be saved.!!

Who those are...?...no one knows...I only know that I am one of them, because I responded to the gospel, and became a Christian. I tell others, and if they do, then they evidently are also one of the "elect"...

[kilgoretrout]

it never rained on earth when Noah buit the Ark? I know it was the desert and all , but how was there any water to be had , for drinking or to grow anything at all...? they must have grown some sort of grain . Did they have elaborate channels from rivers and lakes , how did lakes and rivers not dry up without rainwater to replenish them..?

[kilgoretrout]

How can there be any sin apart form ignorance? in ignorance to the effects of our actions we make bad choices and act out in ways that might be considered sinful. and yet as the story goes knowledge was the original sin , in fact it seems the other way around.