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Post by Elliot Kane on Sept 15, 2009 21:23:37 GMT
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Post by ss on Sept 17, 2009 0:28:37 GMT
Yes, of course the illustrious New York Times has the full story...  The NYT's can't get anything straight...they are almost as bad (but not near so) as UPI.... The Palestians have been fighting a guerilla was for half a century and they do the same as the Iraquis...hide among civilians and in mosques and start a fight and fade away and leave the dead that they hide behind and blame the Jews...the same as the Iraquis blamed the US... Vietnam was the same way....can't tell friend from foe...they don't wear uniforms and are your friend by day and kill you by night... If I was Israel, the Gaza strip would be MINE...(as it should be) as well as Jerusalem and the Golan Heights... Syria fired rockets on Israel for more than 20....(TWENTY) YEARS and the whole world didn't give a rat's A--....but when Israel drove them off and took the Golan Heights back, you could hear the moaning around the whole world... They ARE anti semantic for the most part and the Jews will NEVER get unbiased press....not even here...and now Obama is trying to get them to give up more land ...  Go figure.... |
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Post by Ubereil on Sept 17, 2009 9:55:00 GMT
SS, you're not big on looking at things from the Palestine point of view, are you?
Pepole weren't complaining about Israel doing something about the missiles coming in from Syria, they were complaining about what they were doing about it. They have the right to defend themselves. They don't have the right to commit war crimes.
And if the UN reports they've found war crimes in Gaza then it's probably because the Israel army commited war crimes. War crimes can't be excused. "Palestine did it too" doesn't cut it.
Übereil
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Post by Elliot Kane on Sept 17, 2009 13:33:17 GMT
I'm with Ube on this one. If Israel went all out to annihilate Hamas, I'd shrug my shoulders. Hamas are begging for it and if they get it they only have themselves to blame. The ordinary Palestinian people are not. They should not be victimised because of Hamas.
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Post by Glance A'Lot on Sept 17, 2009 22:28:00 GMT
With 'ordinary palestinians' you mean civilians? Because when Syria, Jordania and Egypt attacked Israel in what is since known as the six day war, the majority of these people that fled the war zones were Jordanian (from the West Bank) or Egyptian (from Gaza) nationals. They were collected in ghetto type camps (by their brethren) with the promise to return 'soon'... I'm not excusing anything here - as you said, war crime is war crime. But the argumentation of a lot of people of either side is long since beyond reason. 'Palestinian' is defined how? People living in the geographical region? That would include the Israelis - but then, those were invaders under Moses (respectively his successors), were they not? |
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Post by Elliot Kane on Sept 17, 2009 22:46:48 GMT
'Civilians' would likely be more accurate, yes. But like it or not, they're all 'Palestinians' now... And yes - both sides are so firmly entrenched now that reason has long fled, sadly. Nothing is ever resolved by the kind of frothing-at-the-mouth hatred both sides regularly display. History proves that, time and again. It's just a shame - and especially for all the ordinary people on both (Or ALL if you prefer, Glance  ) sides who just want to live their lives in peace. I'm sure there must be more of those left than we ever get told about... |
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Post by Ubereil on Sept 18, 2009 8:53:43 GMT
Because when Syria, Jordania and Egypt attacked Israel in what is since known as the six day war, the majority of these people that fled the war zones were Jordanian (from the West Bank) or Egyptian (from Gaza) nationals. They were collected in ghetto type camps (by their brethren) with the promise to return 'soon'... My mistake there. But yes, civilians might be more accurate. The problem is that civilians includes Israeli civilians, and Israeli civilians aren't being opressed. Übereil |
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Post by Elliot Kane on Sept 18, 2009 16:23:35 GMT
Except by all the rocket fire, you mean, Ube? You DO know that Hamas' favourite game is launching rockets at Israel in the blind hope of hitting something and that they shoot hundreds of them every year, right? I'd call that pretty oppressive...
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Post by ss on Sept 19, 2009 2:09:20 GMT
Because when Syria, Jordania and Egypt attacked Israel in what is since known as the six day war, the majority of these people that fled the war zones were Jordanian (from the West Bank) or Egyptian (from Gaza) nationals. They were collected in ghetto type camps (by their brethren) with the promise to return 'soon'... My mistake there. But yes, civilians might be more accurate. The problem is that civilians includes Israeli civilians, and Israeli civilians aren't being opressed. Übereil Just where have you been Ube...Israel has been under threat of EXTINCTION since 1948.... Must be modern "PC" history that you are reading... ;D |
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Post by Ubereil on Sept 19, 2009 9:13:36 GMT
Sure, Israeli are under threat of getting bombed. Not exactly the best way to live your live, with a constant underlying fear that maybe you'll get bombed.
But Palestines can't go where they want, they need a permit to move between quarters of Jerusalem. And to that they can't go home, because Israel drove them out of their homes. Due to part one they can't really get any good jobs. And if you need to go to a hospital and don't have the right permit to move to that quarter then that's too bad.
Israeli are free. Their freedom is hampered by threats of being bombed, but they're free nontheless. Palestines aren't free. That's why I say they're opressed and Israelis aren't.
Übereil
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Post by Elliot Kane on Sept 19, 2009 14:48:19 GMT
You mean 'Israelis are free providing they don't get unluckily bombed, they don't want to visit a neighbouring country, they don't expect anything but a hostile reception in much of Europe...' Funny definition of 'freedom'. 'As long as you're in this fortress, you're free!'. Um... yay?
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Post by Ubereil on Sept 19, 2009 19:28:48 GMT
You mean 'Israelis are free providing they don't get unluckily bombed, they don't want to visit a neighbouring country, they don't expect anything but a hostile reception in much of Europe...' Funny definition of 'freedom'. 'As long as you're in this fortress, you're free!'. Um... yay? They might not be as free as the average scandinavian (to pick an example) but that doesn't automatically put them in the "not free" category. Those things does limit the usefullness of a bunch of choices they can do, but they can still make those choices. They can still be freer yet, but they're pretty free now nontheless. Unlike the Palestines, who gets pushed around at the will of the Israeli goverment. Übereil |
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Post by Elliot Kane on Sept 19, 2009 19:47:41 GMT
Yes and no, Ube. If the definition of freedom is to be 'allowed to move around within a certain proscribed area' then the Palestinians also are free...
The point is that the situation is utterly hellish for everyone and the few small organisations out there who are trying to bring both sides together in peace (And there ARE a few) are voices in the wilderness. It's very sad..
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Post by Glance A'Lot on Sept 19, 2009 22:26:20 GMT
Unlike the Palestines, who gets pushed around at the will of the Israeli goverment.
Not only - for the past 90 years or so (since the fall of the Ottoman Empire after WW I), the palestinians also get pushed around by their arab or at least muslim 'friends'.
The radicals (on either side) apart, there hasn't been a lot of active help in getting Palestine sovereignity, for example - or integration of the several hundred thousand (own citizens!) who fled in 1948 in the failed attempt to 'push the jews into the sea'.
But let's set history aside - the current situation is not one obviously reflecting mutual respect of the other party's (right to) existence. And even less a will to cooperate - who thinks that a sovereign Palestine state in Gaza and the West Bank can economically survive out of its own? And who that the Egyptian and Jordanian neighbours will open their markets to them?
I truly believe that an Israeli-Palestine Federation would be their best bet for a mutually profitable future.
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Post by Elliot Kane on Sept 20, 2009 1:00:16 GMT
One nation? An elegant and practical solution, Glance... Except you just set off the racial & religious purity nuts on both sides...
I think the only think that would honestly work is if the rest of the world could bribe or otherwise persuade some other nation (Or nationS) to take in the Palestinians. Then they could be moved. A heck of a lot of work & trauma on all sides, I know, but the alternative seems to be to leave them as they are...
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Post by Glance A'Lot on Sept 20, 2009 7:46:27 GMT
I didn't say practical - I said it's their best bet - a gamble it remains...
Factually, the Palestinians have as much right to be in the region as anybody.
It always has been a transition area, a multi cultural area, a border to greater powers - something between 'no man's land' and 'everyone's land' - hence a battlefield...
Even the 'great Jewish state' was short lived and fell apart into Judah and Israel, and then further.
ONE GOD worked somehow, but unity, common goal - in politics?
Jews currently celebrate year 5.770 - times of sovereign self governance were less than 10% of that time.
They always were a minority in whereever they lived (which helped the community adherence) - now, for the first time, that has turned, but...
...it is ironic that in 1948 Jews made up some 30 % of the population, and had the Palestinians not fled, or had been allowed to return soon (which Arab countries denied as it would have inferred recognizing the existence of the state of Israel) they could have long 'swallowed' the country culturally.
Instead of eroding Israel as water and wind, they forged it in fire.
{Giving the Palestinians the land to own after having scratched Israel from the face of the Earth was btw not on any agenda of any Arabic state in any of these wars...}
One should think that the Jews should have the most understanding for the Palestinians, as the losers in the struggles of greater powers, displaced, homeless, unwanted, virtually kept prisoners even in allied lands...
Except you just set off the racial & religious purity nuts on both sides...
True that - and worse, they are in power on either side though one would think that they are a minority.
And as long as voices representing a peaceful and cooperative view of a probable silent majority are silenced by murder (Sadat wasn't murdered by a Jew, and Rabin not by an Arab for instance!^^)...
"Fear is, I believe, a most effective tool in destroying the soul of an individual - and the soul of a people." (Anwar El Sadat)[/i]
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Post by Elliot Kane on Sept 20, 2009 10:16:02 GMT
Fear and hatred - and both sides have far too much of both  |
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) sides who just want to live their lives in peace.