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Post by Galadriel on Nov 25, 2009 21:03:16 GMT
Try to remember that there is also something that replaces a real turkey on your table called Tofurkey. If you ask me, this would make me enjoy Thanksgiving even more, if I would celebrate it Have fun everyone and don't over eat yourself Attachments:
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Post by Elliot Kane on Nov 25, 2009 21:05:54 GMT
Happy Thanksgiving to all those who celebrate it!
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Post by Gray Lensman on Nov 26, 2009 0:25:35 GMT
Happy Thanksgiving to one and all. Have a safe and enjoyable break for all those celebrating.
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Post by ss on Nov 26, 2009 14:22:27 GMT
Happy Thanksgiving to everyone..
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Post by killerzzz on Nov 26, 2009 19:19:43 GMT
Happy Thanksgiving, but you guys are over a month late! Enjoy your turkeys and tofurkeys, and other food! ;D Killerzzz
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Post by LaFille on Nov 27, 2009 15:59:50 GMT
A belated happy Thanksgiving to the American chaosites! Hope you had a good time with good food and good company! ...And that you now have a great shopping weekend. ;D
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Post by twoheadedragon on Nov 28, 2009 14:25:27 GMT
A belated Happy Thanksgiving Day to the American Cascaders, and a very belated Happy Thanksgiving Day to the Canadian Cascaders! ;D May we remember this as a day of peace and friendship, especially between the different "races."
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Post by Galadriel on Nov 29, 2009 2:50:51 GMT
Allow me, but this is a very 'utopian' painting, if that is a correct spelling. I'm pretty sure it never went like that between the Native Americans ans the pilgrims.
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Post by LaFille on Nov 30, 2009 1:21:44 GMT
It might have... Just very occasional and with lots of selfish commercial/military interests behind.
Yeah, it's late for Canadian Thanksgiving; at this point the harvest is usually stored and frozen since some time. ;D
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Post by The Sonar Chicken on Nov 30, 2009 1:28:24 GMT
The picture simply reeks of "A people unable to feed themselves".
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Post by Flix on Nov 30, 2009 2:00:04 GMT
Yeah, the pilgrims right? That's the usual American interpretation: the settlers, cold and hungry, taught how to farm corn by the Indians and sharing the Indian's hunting, fishing, etc. Though I guess the pic does kind of look like the humble Indians taking the table scraps of the white man. I think it's supposed to just represent that the Native Americans preferred to sit on the ground....dunno
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Post by The Sonar Chicken on Nov 30, 2009 2:08:29 GMT
Well, I meant... the "Indians being unable to feed themselves". And yes, that's what the picture really looks like to me. It's not the "sitting on ground" thing, it's the "gathering crowd of pilgrims around them, passing on food while the Indians have little to nothing". And maybe it's me but it's also how the symbolism is like: "a group of well-dressed people as opposed to a group of people who look like they don't know how to dress". In reality, weren't the pilgrims Quakers who were strict adherents to a certain form of beliefs? I think their dressing must have been more conservative, man. It also looks like the Indians were portrayed as "less civilized" when compared to the "white people".
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Post by Flix on Nov 30, 2009 2:21:01 GMT
Um, they were. But that should only matter if you vaunt civilized life over a tribal one. The dress is pretty close to authentic. Also, this is a depiction of a real event, the 1621 Thanksgiving, where the Pilgrims shared their bountiful harvest with the Natives who had taught them how to farm there.
Also, Quakers didn't exist yet. But the Plymouth colony were Calvinist Puritans with a strict aesthetic. They don't look all that extravagant to me.
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Post by ss on Nov 30, 2009 21:18:58 GMT
I agree with Flix....and I don't think it shows a "Utopian" concept, just a simple thanksgiving dinner between two different cultures. Actually, the Indians are being "served" dinner by the "Pilgrims" The Indians attire shows "dressing up" and is probably a Chief of their people. Probably shows the Virginia thanksgiving as it would be rather cold in Massachusetts in late November.
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Post by Galadriel on Dec 6, 2009 3:39:38 GMT
I agree with Flix....and I don't think it shows a "Utopian" concept, just a simple thanksgiving dinner between two different cultures. Actually, the Indians are being "served" dinner by the "Pilgrims" The Indians attire shows "dressing up" and is probably a Chief of their people. Probably shows the Virginia thanksgiving as it would be rather cold in Massachusetts in late November. Allow me, but WOW, you really believe that yourself? No offence though, just being honest here. The pilgrims called the Natives the savages. They didn't find them any more then an animal. And that is just a dreamy painting from a romantic painter, who wasn't even there probably. *edit* btw, ever saw The Mission? And the offspring of the pilgrims did the same things with the slaves from Africa later on. I don't think I ever heard of a Thanksgiving dinner between those two cultures. And again, no offence to you at all
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Post by twoheadedragon on Dec 6, 2009 10:15:44 GMT
@ Gal: I agree with you about the general policies of the Whites being not-so-friendly to the natives, yes indeed they exploited them, looted their villages, raped their women, stole their land, etc. However, this event took place before the mass-expansion policies of the whites: IIRC, the whites only got REALLY earnest in their expansion after the USA became independent; before that they only had a long, pretty wide strip of land running along the east coast. (What was that policy called again? Oh yeah, "Manifest Destiny") The group of men who landed at Plymouth were Puritans, initially when they landed they were fighting the natives, but they soon realized that they wouldn't survive the winter without help. So they sent an envoy asking for peace, and the natives granted them peace and aid (how nice of the natives). To celebrate their new friendship, they had a celebration in the Plymouth Colony. Too bad Chief Squanto didn't see what was coming just a few decades down the line. The natives in general weren't as savage/war-like as the Whites liked to paint the story (and still do, sadly). Initially, the natives almost always tried to help the Whites, but when they realized what the Whites were up to, they fought back (of course! who wouldn't?). EDIT: This Thanksgiving took place in the early 1600's (1620's, was it?), long before the USA became independent.
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Post by Galadriel on Dec 6, 2009 14:08:10 GMT
So this painting was more some sort of propaganda? I can believe they fought back, after all, the Natives lived there first and suddenly a bunch of strangers (with strange weapons, deadly diseases and strange cultures) came over and claimed the land.
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Post by ss on Dec 6, 2009 17:46:38 GMT
I agree with Flix....and I don't think it shows a "Utopian" concept, just a simple thanksgiving dinner between two different cultures. Actually, the Indians are being "served" dinner by the "Pilgrims" The Indians attire shows "dressing up" and is probably a Chief of their people. Probably shows the Virginia thanksgiving as it would be rather cold in Massachusetts in late November. Allow me, but WOW, you really believe that yourself? No offence though, just being honest here. The pilgrims called the Natives the savages. They didn't find them any more then an animal. And that is just a dreamy painting from a romantic painter, who wasn't even there probably. *edit* btw, ever saw The Mission? And the offspring of the pilgrims did the same things with the slaves from Africa later on. I don't think I ever heard of a Thanksgiving dinner between those two cultures. And again, no offence to you at all None taken... But...I haven't watched the "mission" but don't pay much attention to the historical inaccuracies in movies... The reality (IMO) is more than just paintings and movies. Yes, as 2HD states, "Manifest Destiny" played a role in the expansion of America westward, but wasn't even a philosophy until the middle 1800's... As for the Indians, it was inevitable that they would not survive as a culture seeing as their numbers, will to adapt, assimilation, etc was apparently not to be... That in no wise justify that the way they were treated was unconscienable.. But for a slight twist, it is probable that the first bloodshed in America by Europeans was not against Indians, but against the Huguenots from France who had fled persecution. They had formed a colony near the mouth of the St. Johns River, in Florida. A group of assassians prompted by Roman Catholic fanatics..led by 12 Franciscans and 4 Jesuits, who gave them the "churches blessing" ...under the command of Pedro Melendez ..hung all of the colony and inscribed a sign which said "Hung as heretics, and not as Frenchmen." I guess St. Bartholomew's day need a refresh... Notwithstanding....no excuses for the way any minority cultures were/are treated, but IMO, the world can be eternally grateful that the American continent was colonized by Protestant England rather than by Catholic France and Spain. We would have NEVER had the Magna Charta, but we would have had the guillotine and the Inquisition.. If Columbus had not followed birds to the West Indies, he would have landed on the shores of North America around the Carolinas. He gave Spain the West Indies Islands. Protestand England gave us what we are today.... So I know it is off topic a bit, but religions have a bearing on everything.. Romanism sterilized...Protestantism vitalizes.. concerning civilizations... the answer to the "Shasters" --India the answer to the Koran---Turkey, Iraq, Iran..etc the answer to Romanism--Spain, Mexico, South America, etc the answer to "Atheism" --brought about the Reign of Terror in France and the Commune in Paris. the answer to the bible --Protestant Europe and America to me (believing that the human race is totally corrupt to begin with) ..we definitely have the lesser of all evils..
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Post by Galadriel on Dec 7, 2009 13:05:59 GMT
You're right ss, religion is the root of all evil if you look through history
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Post by ss on Dec 8, 2009 0:54:50 GMT
You're right ss, religion is the root of all evil if you look through history Probably the manipulation of it....but your point is well taken.. ;D
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