The Secessionist Campaign for Vermont

[Elliot Kane]

Unlikely, I know, but I found this quite fascinating

[The Sonar Chicken]

Rofl... anti-war, yeah! ;D Let's see what happens should they ever run out of resources and be made to use force or negotiation, in order to survive.

[Glance A'Lot]

That'd be an interesting challenge for the Supreme Court.

AFAIK the constitution contains no provisions for leaving the Union (actually, while I think of it, does it contain any for joining?)

The closest procedure I could think of would be a reversing of the joining process - that would include Congress to approve?

Of course the President would be duty bound to safeguard the Union...

In analogy to the Federal Republic of Germany I'd say the unification is a one way street, or at least originally intended to be one.

Now Europe has its share of small sovereign countries, some of which Americans would even call tiny. Such micro states barely can live on their own, so will have to cooperate with their neighbours to survive. In light of this, such separatist movements generally appear (to me) as personal ego-trips rather than 'for the greater good of the people', far less the 'nation'.

But then, Canada has Quebec, France the Basques and Bretons, Spain the Basques and the Catalan, Germany the Bavarians, the United Kingdom...

Separatist tendencies seem global and persistent.

Anytime a population is governed from a distance, be it geographic or just psychologic, the feeling arises of being governed by 'strangers', of 'we can do it better (for us!) locally.

I (as a bloody foreigner, of course) would not have been surprised to read such from California, or Texas, or Alaska - but VERMONT?

[Elliot Kane]

That was what interested me, too, Glance, I have to admit. If it had been rumblings in Texas, I wouldn't even have blinked. But Vermont?!? As far as I am aware (From a very foreign - and thus ignorant - perspective) Vermont is one of the quietest states in the Union.

I thought for a moment about everything I've heard about Vermont and came to the conclusion that the extent of my knowledge amounted to: 'It's There'. The place is that quiet, normally.

So this is utterly fascinating to me. Even though I can't see them ever getting any serious support, the fact that they exist is incredibly interesting. Not least because of what it indicates about the nature of tribal identity.

[Glance A'Lot]

I think it is less a tribal issue of the 'Vermontese' as a 'We don't like outside (federal) governance' - similar to the British not liking EU governance.

There, as here, a lot could be alleviated if the central government would be more transparent and less self-centered - even though I concede that comparing the USA as a union state to the EU as a union of (otherwise sovereign) states is somewhat incorrect.

I also think it is a 'luxury' problem - I'd wager that similar notions are extant in any state (and I'm not limiting this to US federal states) with reasonably sound economy, and rather rare in states with a low economy heavily dependent on solidary subsidies from fellow states.

[Elliot Kane]

But who is the 'We'? If they did not feel that Vermont were not a distinct entity - and thus composed of a distinct and unique people - would there be secessionist feelings? I doubt it.

People tend to be loyal first to family and friends and then to the tribe(s) they feel like they are a part of. The fact that a number of Vermonters (?) feel they are part of 'Tribe Vermont' before they are part of 'Tribe America' is highly significant, IMO.

Vermont has, IIRC, never been a distinct entity with a single homogenous people, after all. Yet clearly close association over time has welded the descendants of various disparate tribes into a whole new tribe. In theory this is how tribes form in the first place, but here is the evidence. I'm actually rather thrilled! ;D

[Ubereil]

Feb 1, 2010 16:06:54 GMT Elliot Kane said:

People tend to be loyal first to family and friends and then to the tribe(s) they feel like they are a part of. The fact that a number of Vermonters (?) feel they are part of 'Tribe Vermont' before they are part of 'Tribe America' is highly significant, IMO.

I believe Americans are a lot more regional than most Europeans. Meaning, that the part of their contry they come from means a lot more for an American than to a European. I believe that it's far from uncommon that the home state means more than the US as a whole for pepole from the United States. Unless you're a Texan extreme rightie it's very uncommon that you don't consider yourself American though (which I believe would be the only reason anyone would like their state to leave the union - you don't feel like you're part of the union).

Übereil

[Glance A'Lot]

Hey you Americans!

Are you aware that we have here an Englishman, a German and a Swede discussing the secession of Vermont?

Could that be:

... a conspirative round of three aliens?

... or a cunning plan?

... foreign interference into domestic affairs?

... a plot to disseminate subversive information?

... a campaign to discredit the State of Vermont?

... or rather a marketing campaign for the otherwise inconspicuous Vermont?



P.S.: Considering a widespread faible for conspiracies , the answer probably is:

SPOILER: Click to show

ALL OF THE ABOVE! ;D

[Elliot Kane]

Ube...

I think it depends on the country within Europe, honestly. While there is not, to my knowledge, a huge call for, say, Alsatian independence, there is still a pretty strong desire for a free Catalan state in Spain.

Taking the UK as a whole, there is a pretty strong movement in Scotland right now for a separation from the UK.

I really don't know about the German states, but it wouldn't surprise me if there were the odd mutterings there, too.

I think you are right about 'most' of the old tiny nations having been successfully subsumed over the generations, so that the US may indeed be more regionally minded.

Had to think about that one for a while, though.

***

Luci...

Given that every US state is the size of a small country on its own, and nometimes a not so small country, I wonder at just how well some might do as independent entities. I know too little of Vermont specifically, but some of the others might do pretty well.

If California were an independent nation, for example, it would be in the top ten nations in the world in terms of its economy.

***

Glance...

ROFL! ;D

[Lews]

Last time I checked, that was illegal.

While I understand, and applaud, their desires for peace, and the like, this is not the way to get it done.

Amusing, though, I guess. Sort of.

[ss]

Feb 2, 2010 8:23:59 GMT Glance A'Lot said:

Hey you Americans!

Are you aware that we have here an Englishman, a German and a Swede discussing the secession of Vermont?

Could that be:

... a conspirative round of three aliens?

... or a cunning plan?

... foreign interference into domestic affairs?

... a plot to disseminate subversive information?

... a campaign to discredit the State of Vermont?

... or rather a marketing campaign for the otherwise inconspicuous Vermont?



P.S.: Considering a widespread faible for conspiracies , the answer probably is:

SPOILER: Click to show

ALL OF THE ABOVE! ;D

Hey Glance, just got time to read the posts...

That is an interesting article...I like it...although I would not like to see Vermont try to leave the Union...

They have some interesting ideas..but it is more like the original intent of the Constitution in that the "states rights" part of it is being over ran by the bloated Federal government..and Vermont is starting to say so....they may not be the last State to do so..

If you look at the state mottos, New Hampshire, right next door to Vermont, has as their motto "Live Free or Die", and they don't call those citizens from Maine "mainiacs" for nothing... ;D

I am not an authority on the matter, but they might have a point in balking at using the National Guard for out of country excursions..