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Post by sps1000 on Feb 8, 2007 3:16:34 GMT
It had to happen. I'm finally reading Watchmen. Just got to the midpoint so here are some general comments:
I love how Watchmen has a simple nine panel layout for many of the pages so far. It's a very interesting choice as is the no sounds nor thought bubbles.
Best characters so far IMO are Rorschach and Dr. Manhattan. Rorscach because he's the Question taken to the extreme. Proves that you have to be psycho to don a mask and fight crime. Dr. Manhattan because even though he's more like a god he does have that human element of loneliness coupled with a level of detachment that none of us have.
Probably the thing I like most is the text at the end of each chapter. It really expands on the universe and the characters, and it's so varied also.
Still haven't gotten the point of the pirate comics intertwined but I am sure that will be made apparent as I get farther into it.
So far at the mid-point do I think this is the greatest comic of all time? A resounding no. But it is definetly top 5. I'll have a final opinion on this work once I finish it.
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Post by Elliot Kane on Feb 8, 2007 6:42:43 GMT
Heh. It gets better
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Post by hector on Feb 8, 2007 9:29:15 GMT
Tom Cruise, this was a bit weird.
I've been discussing Watchmen in two separate boards (against the retarded notion that Watchmen was harmful, killed the industry and never should have been written) and chatting about it, too.
Then I found this thread here!
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Post by The Spider on Feb 8, 2007 9:56:32 GMT
(against the retarded notion that Watchmen was harmful, killed the industry and never should have been written) This wouldn't happen to have anything to do with a certain rant being done by a certain other bearded creator who seems to have resentment for what Moore writes (even though other bearded creator does things that he hates Moore for doing)? Cause strangely enough when I first saw the thread title on the homepage I thought Elliot was bringing up a thread from Comicon. And speaking of coincidences (but having nothing to do with Watchmen), (SPOILERS FOR ACTION COMICS ANNUAL #10 AHEAD) Somebody on Millarworld recently brought up that Mark Millar contributed the idea of Metallo getting a red Kryptonite heart for the aborted Superman 2000 pitch (and Millar confirmed this). This week, in ACTION COMICS ANNUAL #10, Luthor inserts green, red, gold, and blue K into Metallo.
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Post by hector on Feb 8, 2007 10:33:16 GMT
This wouldn't happen to have anything to do with a certain rant being done by a certain other bearded creator who seems to have resentment for what Moore writes (even though other bearded creator does things that he hates Moore for doing)? He goes around, doesn't he? But, being fair to Byrne, he neither brought up Watchman nor has been attacking it as viciously as he usually does. His band of well trained sycophants are the ones doing the job. I love this quote, from one of them: I said I thought it was the first shot at sinking this ship we call comics.His ignorance is so amusing.
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Post by Elliot Kane on Feb 8, 2007 15:01:22 GMT
I'm not shy about stealing good debates from other places, but is there a single person here who wouldn't laugh at the idea tather than lend it credence? I think not.
Hardly a debate when everyone says 'Byrne & friends are wrong' is it now?
I don't see a point in 'Let's Bash Byrne' threads, either. Not unless he's done something truly heinous, which this isn't.
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Post by The Spider on Feb 8, 2007 19:18:25 GMT
I'm not shy about stealing good debates from other places, but is there a single person here who wouldn't laugh at the idea tather than lend it credence? I think not. Hardly a debate when everyone says 'Byrne & friends are wrong' is it now? I don't see a point in 'Let's Bash Byrne' threads, either. Not unless he's done something truly heinous, which this isn't. For the most part I thought it'd be the other parts from the Comicon thread, such as the debate about whether WATCHMEN should be blamed for the grim and gritty era of comics (which is possible, but most of the blame should really go on the imitators), etc. But yeah, it's pretty much the same thing Byrne says re: WATCHMEN since maybe eight, nine, or so years ago. There was one Byrne thing brought up there that I still thought was interesting... Byrne believes that the later half of Miller's DARK KNIGHT was influenced by Moore (while he believes the first half was pure Miller). A couple years ago Warren Ellis indicated that during the 80's, Miller and Moore were following each other's work, so they'd be very well aware of what the other was doing. Plus, the government crackdown on superheroes wasn't fully indicated until #3, as I recall (though Superman had a conversation with Reagan in #2).
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Post by The Spider on Feb 8, 2007 19:20:56 GMT
Still haven't gotten the point of the pirate comics intertwined but I am sure that will be made apparent as I get farther into it. It will. It parallels with a major thing that happens in the entire book.
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Post by Elliot Kane on Feb 8, 2007 19:21:40 GMT
Following maybe, but with complex works like that I'd bet everything major was already worked out before they began soliciting issue one.
Miller's story is clearly political commentary right from the start, and stays that way throughout.
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Post by hector on Feb 9, 2007 0:19:20 GMT
For the most part I thought it'd be the other parts from the Comicon thread, such as the debate about whether WATCHMEN should be blamed for the grim and gritty era of comics (which is possible, but most of the blame should really go on the imitators), etc. But yeah, it's pretty much the same thing Byrne says re: WATCHMEN since maybe eight, nine, or so years ago. While Watchmen had a definite influence on comic books, Byrne's arguement, and that of his fans, usually doesn't stop there. They posit that Watchmen had a hand in utterly destroying the industry. Which is just plain ignorance. X-Force #1 did more damage than a thousand Watchmen's. If Byrne hadn't said it, I would never have tought so. There is no tonal difference between the first and second half of DKR; nor there is a disconnection from where the plot was logically moving. However, I gave certain credence to it. After all, that did happened, much more noticeably, in DKSA, after Frankie had his brain hemorrhage.
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Post by sps1000 on Feb 11, 2007 21:50:24 GMT
I just finished Watchmen. I don't think it's the best comic book ever. Probably had to read it before it started influencing every comic book writer and their mother. Anywho it has one of the best endings ever. And Roscharch possibly getting the last laugh is one of the best final panels ever in comics.
Anywho could someone explain the point of the pirate story? I didn't get it.
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Post by Elliot Kane on Feb 11, 2007 21:55:05 GMT
The pirate story parallels Ozymandias' story, SPS. The main character does so many evil things to try to save his home that he ends up hopelessly corrupted, as does Ozymandias. Watchmen is one of those things you can read a dozen times and still find new things you missed. I don't think anyone ever gets it completely at one reading
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Post by The Spider on Feb 12, 2007 4:14:53 GMT
I just finished Watchmen. I don't think it's the best comic book ever. Probably had to read it before it started influencing every comic book writer and their mother. Anywho it has one of the best endings ever. And Roscharch possibly getting the last laugh is one of the best final panels ever in comics. Anywho could someone explain the point of the pirate story? I didn't get it. Think of the pirate story this time with Adrian Veidt in the role of the castaway narrator.... There's a few parts where the Pirate comic parallels the main Watchmen story... Remember the ending of the pirate story where the castaway starts swimming closer and closer to the Black Freighter? Check out the scene in Chapter 12 where Adrian is talking to Dr. Manhattan and mentions that he had a dream--Moore implies that Ozymandius is having a nightmare where he's swimming toward the Black Freighter.
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Post by Gray Lensman on Feb 12, 2007 22:10:15 GMT
For me, Watchmen is a really unique work. Based mainly on the unparalleled craftsmanship and all the intricate subtleties one can read into it. The pirate story to me always struck me as a general commentary of how even a good person can become corrupted given the right circumstances. It parallels Veidt, but it could apply just as well to Rorschach, to name an example. It's more a side tale that reflects the themes of Watchmen as a whole. But then, much of Watchmen is what you read into it. That's really much of the fun of it.
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Post by hector on Feb 13, 2007 1:38:34 GMT
Anywho could someone explain the point of the pirate story? I didn't get it. The pirate story is a juxtaposition of Adrian Veidt's story, intended to both parallel it and to cast doubt into the claims of Veidt's about the impending and irrevocable destruction of the world. The Captain, out of despair, rides the backs of dead men to stop an imaginary threat, thus becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy. If we take into account Veidt's claims, WWIII was an inevitability, and there is evidence in the book to support this. But Watchmen isn't about absolutes, it was entirely possible Veidt was wrong, and the killing of half the population of NY was a product of his own hubris and arrogance. It's a metafictional construct, intended to address the main storyline, to enhance and deepen it, viewing it from a different point of view.
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Dr. Doom
Apprentice
I will not eat cat poop.
Posts: 428
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Post by Dr. Doom on Feb 13, 2007 2:11:07 GMT
When I first saw Watchmen topping Wizard's list of greatest comic stories of all time, my first thought was "bull****."
But then I read it. Amazingness. Best ever? Not sure, as there is some pretty stiff competition, but it was definitely good. Hell, the secondary comic (the pirate story) was better than almost everything put out today.
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