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Post by Flix on Oct 13, 2009 21:22:06 GMT
And for all we know, not a single person in the whole of history may have gotten it right... Bingo. I don't even assume I'm 100% right on this (unlike most other things ;D). I'm just doing the best I can to get a "true" understanding of the world with the senses and faculties I've got. The key, to me, is not to get so stuck to beliefs that I won't be able to change when there's evidence of something else. This is a significant flaw with religious faith when it does all the work. How can anyone be so sure of it?
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Post by Elliot Kane on Oct 14, 2009 5:16:26 GMT
That's what ultimately led me to 'blowed if I know!' as my current answer, Flix. I can logically validate both Theism and Atheism, because what little evidence there is stacks up both ways according to how you choose to interpret it - and what you choose to consider as evidence in the first place.
But in terms of actual PROOF - there's none at all on either side.
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Post by twoheadedragon on Oct 14, 2009 8:06:24 GMT
For me personally, I find the answer to all these questions and more in my faith in God, faith in the Bible, and faith in Jesus Christ. But I'm sure many people find the meaning in Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. But atheism ultimately doesn't give us much of a purpose for living, does it? No. It doesn't "give" us anything. Except freedom from religion. We have to work for the rest. Besides, if you don't believe He actually exists, then why bother arguing for His "lack" of attributes. ? Anything less that an OMNI-everything should automatically be ruled out as not worth even trying to find out about, let alone KNOW... I agree wholeheartedly. The only god I can conceive of is flawed. Either he intentionally made man (and angels, for Christians) with the potential for evil, or he didn't know that Lucifer and Man would fall. Either way, something's lacking. The very idea that there's a heaven (perfect world) just shows that this universe ain't perfect, or even good. If there is a creator, I don't like him very much. As I've said before, the only way this world can reflect a perfect being is if somehow all this evil, suffering, and sorrow is the ONLY way to lead to a perfect world - a "end justifying the means" concept basically. There is no freedom in atheism, only bondage. What's gonna happen to you when you die? What's your purpose for living? Why were you even born in the first place? How did the Earth/Universe come into existence? Why is the Earth just the perfect distance from the Sun to sustain life on Earth? The first law of thermodynamics states that matter cannot be created or destroyed, making the big bang (or whatever other weird origin of life theory that doesn't involve a supreme Deity) an utter impossibility. Faith in God is what ultimately gives us freedom. Without God, you don't have freedom (due to all the above-mentioned problems). God loved man enough to grant him freedom of choice, all His creations have freedom of choice, Lucifer included. The way the World is today reflects the choices mankind has made throughout the ages, and sadly man's choices have been for the worse.
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Post by twoheadedragon on Oct 14, 2009 8:13:53 GMT
*groans* I'm almost certain ss and I covered this one in a previous thread: man was created PERFECT, but they also had freedom of choice; and they KNOWINGLY ate the fruit of the forbidden tree, and thus all of us must bear the consequences, as we are all their descendants... Man , in a supposed state of perfection , could not error , any choice made by a perfect being (Adam and Eve) could only be perfect. Then again if they had not yet eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge then they could not be trusted in that state of ignorance to make a knowledgeable choice. Man was created perfect, but with freedom of choice. And he was created with pride as well. Now, pride isn't necessarily a bad thing (i.e. It isn't wrong to be proud of your children, country, Faith, etc.), but it can be used for evil if manipulated accordingly. And (as I said to Ube) Satan used Eve's pride against her in this manner, by tempting her with the "fact" that her and Adam would become like God, and ultimately become Gods, with the knowledge of good and evil at their disposal. Granted, he was only half-lying, but I guess that's why Eve fell for it: she probably wouldn't have fallen for an outright lie.
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Post by twoheadedragon on Oct 14, 2009 8:21:00 GMT
Two-Headed-Dragon: I laugh at the idea that billions of people believe, because allow me to point something out. The argument of "How can so many, be wrong?" Is easy- Everyone once thought the world was flat. Everyone once though space was a crystal globe placed above the earth. And everyone once thought that psychological disorders were demons. How can so many be wrong? Its easy. It happens all the time. So you and your billions can live in your little bubble, with your flat world. *ahem* I posted: In answer to EK's post: I was NOT using the "billions of people can't be wrong" fallacy, just answering EK's question. YOU live in a flat World, which consists solely of material objects. The World I live in, on the other hand, is multi-dimensional, as I believe in the Spiritual.
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Post by twoheadedragon on Oct 14, 2009 8:24:17 GMT
Well, the majority of people HAVE to be wrong, don't they? Throughout history, there have been billions of Christians, Muslims and Hindus. There have been at the least hundreds of millions of Jews, Taoists, Sikhs and Buddhists. There have been tens of millions of Zoroastrians and followers of Shinto... You get the idea, right? Assuming any one religion is correct, the vast majority of humanity throughout history have been wrong about which one it is. So almost by definition, the correct idea on whatever deities there may or may not be is held by a minority. And for all we know, not a single person in the whole of history may have gotten it right... Yes, of course the majority is usually wrong. The "billions of people" fallacy is just that, a fallacy. Well, I'm pretty sure some people have gotten it pretty right... But yeah, I'm not too sure if any human being got it 100% right. We're not perfect (well, not anymore anyway). ;D
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Post by Flix on Oct 14, 2009 8:27:38 GMT
That's what ultimately led me to 'blowed if I know!' as my current answer, Flix. I can logically validate both Theism and Atheism, because what little evidence there is stacks up both ways according to how you choose to interpret it - and what you choose to consider as evidence in the first place. But in terms of actual PROOF - there's none at all on either side. Oh yes, your maddening "it's exactly 50/50 either way, a perfect split, one is not even slightly more likely than the other..." You make a great Buddhist, always choosing the precise middle way.
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Post by twoheadedragon on Oct 14, 2009 8:31:58 GMT
"Curiosity killed the cat." Although man was created perfect, he still had pride. Perfect means flawless. Pride is a flaw (if it wasn't, would it be part of the seven deadly sins?). Therefore a perfect being wouldn't have been proud. Not really. The Bible says human was created perfect. Either the Bible definition of "perfect" is a really, really weird one (considering that Adam and Eve are obviously flawed, which isn't perfect at all) or it's contradicting itself. I believe the latter. Besides, if you don't believe He actually exists, then why bother arguing for His "lack" of attributes. ? Anything less that an OMNI-everything should automatically be ruled out as not worth even trying to find out about, let alone KNOW... Why bother with such a "god".. he/she would just be a "evolved" stupid human... Well, you're the one who bothers with him, not me. I'm merely arguing that he's a human creation, which I do so that pepole can get their morality from reason rather than a 2000 year old book. Maybe then we could finally get rid of stupidity like Abstinence Only education and the ban on Gay marriage. As for arguing for his lack of attribute, I do that in order to "prove" his lack of existance. Übereil See my answer in reply #23, this answers your question about pride, and humanity being created perfect. Let's see, if we don't get our morality from the Bible... Why don't we just get rid of criminal penalties for murder? Why don't we promote rape? Why don't we allow thievery/stealing in society? etc. etc. Yeah, let's just throw away all the laws and live like a bunch of evolved monkeys! Since, after all, there is no God, NO CREATOR, and CREATION IS FALSE... This means that nothing's right, nothing's wrong! Because ultimately, God would've had to put patterns of law and codes of morality down for mankind... But hey! Since we've done away with God, why don't we just do away with all laws and regulations? ... It's NO WONDER the crime rate has gone up dramatically over the past 50 years, due to the decline of belief in God no doubt.
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Post by Flix on Oct 14, 2009 8:33:57 GMT
YOU live in a flat World, which consists solely of material objects. The World I live in, on the other hand, is multi-dimensional, as I believe in the Spiritual. I have to admit, I've always wondered what it is like, really believing in mystical magical things like that. To be inside a believer's head for a day... I will say, though, that being a believer still seems more limiting. Everything is already pretty much explained for you. There's beauty, it's God's creation. There's suffering, and it's a trial, or Lucifer, or whatever. There's an unusual moral problem, my spritiual teachings will tell me how to handle it. There's some new scientific finding, well if it contradicts the scripture then it's ignored or rejected. If it doesn't, then it's just part of God's creation and plan of course.
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Post by twoheadedragon on Oct 14, 2009 8:36:37 GMT
And for all we know, not a single person in the whole of history may have gotten it right... Bingo. I don't even assume I'm 100% right on this (unlike most other things ;D). I'm just doing the best I can to get a "true" understanding of the world with the senses and faculties I've got. The key, to me, is not to get so stuck to beliefs that I won't be able to change when there's evidence of something else. This is a significant flaw with religious faith when it does all the work. How can anyone be so sure of it? 3 Erm, Christianity is not "stuck..." Just look at the reformations, revolutions, and revivals that have taken place in "Christianity" over the past 2,000 years. "Stuck" means the same as "dead" in this case: the meaning being "Not Moving" Latin is a "dead" (or "stuck") language, while English is not (just for an example).
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Post by Flix on Oct 14, 2009 8:37:43 GMT
Let's see, if we don't get our morality from the Bible... Why don't we just get rid of criminal penalties for murder? Why don't we promote rape? Why don't we allow thievery/stealing in society? etc. etc. Yeah, let's just throw away all the laws and live like a bunch of evolved monkeys! Since, after all, there is no God, NO CREATOR, and CREATION IS FALSE... This means that nothing's right, nothing's wrong! Because ultimately, God would've had to put patterns of law and codes of morality down for mankind... But hey! Since we've done away with God, why don't we just do away with all laws and regulations? ... It's NO WONDER the crime rate has gone up dramatically over the past 50 years, due to the decline of belief in God no doubt. Wow. Just wow.
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Post by twoheadedragon on Oct 14, 2009 8:41:09 GMT
YOU live in a flat World, which consists solely of material objects. The World I live in, on the other hand, is multi-dimensional, as I believe in the Spiritual. I have to admit, I've always wondered what it is like, really believing in mystical magical things like that. To be inside a believer's head for a day... I will say, though, that being a believer still seems more limiting. Everything is already pretty much explained for you. There's beauty, it's God's creation. There's suffering, and it's a trial, or Lucifer, or whatever. There's an unusual moral problem, my spritiual teachings will tell me how to handle it. There's some new scientific finding, well if it contradicts the scripture then it's ignored or rejected. If it doesn't, then it's just part of God's creation and plan of course. That is not limiting, it is liberating! Let's see the inside of an atheist's head for one day: There's beauty, it evolved. There's suffering, it's not MY fault! It's a trial, it's the other guy's BS! An unusual moral problem, hire an attorney! New scientific finding, ah, who cares? It doesn't make a big difference for me, since I still have to deal with all these issues... Wait a minute, how come I'm here, on this $hitty planet? With this $hitty life, $hitty flat, $hitty car, $hitty job... oh [censored] it, time to go hit the bar! YAHOO! Man, I pity the "Faithless."
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Post by Flix on Oct 14, 2009 8:41:52 GMT
Bingo. I don't even assume I'm 100% right on this (unlike most other things ;D). I'm just doing the best I can to get a "true" understanding of the world with the senses and faculties I've got. The key, to me, is not to get so stuck to beliefs that I won't be able to change when there's evidence of something else. This is a significant flaw with religious faith when it does all the work. How can anyone be so sure of it? 3 Erm, Christianity is not "stuck..." Just look at the reformations, revolutions, and revivals that have taken place in "Christianity" over the past 2,000 years. "Stuck" means the same as "dead" in this case: the meaning being "Not Moving" Latin is a "dead" (or "stuck") language, while English is not (just for an example). Oh yes! You're right it is not stuck the way you're talking about. That's one reason why Christianity has done so well, it keeps adapting. So much of the Bible is ignored, so much of the old ways are over and done, for most it's just Christianity-lite. Keep the feel-good stuff about redemption, the really important rules and still-relevant teachings, maybe a little Hell-talk to keep it serious. This is one things Christian fundamentalists get so upset about. Christianity keeps growing and changing - you don't like the practices and teachings of you denomination? Join another, there are hundreds! Or start your own! Christianity adapts because people adapt. The core message - salvation through faith, stays the same.
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Post by twoheadedragon on Oct 14, 2009 8:42:06 GMT
Let's see, if we don't get our morality from the Bible... Why don't we just get rid of criminal penalties for murder? Why don't we promote rape? Why don't we allow thievery/stealing in society? etc. etc. Yeah, let's just throw away all the laws and live like a bunch of evolved monkeys! Since, after all, there is no God, NO CREATOR, and CREATION IS FALSE... This means that nothing's right, nothing's wrong! Because ultimately, God would've had to put patterns of law and codes of morality down for mankind... But hey! Since we've done away with God, why don't we just do away with all laws and regulations? ... It's NO WONDER the crime rate has gone up dramatically over the past 50 years, due to the decline of belief in God no doubt. Wow. Just wow. Not "wow", my dear Flix. "Duh."
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Post by twoheadedragon on Oct 14, 2009 8:45:04 GMT
3 Erm, Christianity is not "stuck..." Just look at the reformations, revolutions, and revivals that have taken place in "Christianity" over the past 2,000 years. "Stuck" means the same as "dead" in this case: the meaning being "Not Moving" Latin is a "dead" (or "stuck") language, while English is not (just for an example). Christianity adapts because people adapt. The core message - salvation through faith, stays the same. Amen! And I honestly thank God for that, otherwise I would be pretty scared of death. No seriously, I mean it! If it weren't for salvation through faith, since every single human has sinned, and since Adam + Eve sinned, we'd all be doomed...
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Post by Flix on Oct 14, 2009 8:48:01 GMT
Scary isn't it? That God set things up that way, for us to be doomed by default unless we believe...
Faith is not easy. It seems like just about the hardest thing a creator could ask of us.
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Post by twoheadedragon on Oct 14, 2009 8:53:59 GMT
Scary isn't it? That God set things up that way, for us to be doomed by default unless we believe... I'm almost certain I answered this age-old question in another thread... But basically, after man fell God started running things the "Old Testament" way: strict rules, harsh punishments. In fact, the rules were SO strict, pretty much nobody could adhere to every single one of them! But then God had mercy on Humanity, and sent Jesus to the World, so that we'd have a good "shot" at going to Heaven! And yes, it's true that it's "unfair" that ANY of us go to Heaven, since we've all "broken the rules" at some point or another... Which makes Jesus' love and Salvation all the more valuable. "Saved by grace, through faith."
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Post by twoheadedragon on Oct 14, 2009 8:59:16 GMT
Faith is not easy. It seems like just about the hardest thing a creator could ask of us. Ah, but faith is easy! A little baby has enough faith that when he reaches for his mom's breast, she'll let him have it. And that when he sucks her nipple, he'll get milk. And he has faith that when he cries, help will come his way in the form of food, warmth, comfort, whatever his need happened to be. This is what Jesus was talking about when He said "Ye must be born again." We have to renew our minds, allow ourselves to just accept it by faith like a little baby! Granted, it's not easy to let go of our old mindset of "nothing in this life is free!" But believe me, it's worth it. It's even worth dying for.
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Post by Elliot Kane on Oct 14, 2009 9:12:19 GMT
That's what ultimately led me to 'blowed if I know!' as my current answer, Flix. I can logically validate both Theism and Atheism, because what little evidence there is stacks up both ways according to how you choose to interpret it - and what you choose to consider as evidence in the first place. But in terms of actual PROOF - there's none at all on either side. Oh yes, your maddening "it's exactly 50/50 either way, a perfect split, one is not even slightly more likely than the other..." You make a great Buddhist, always choosing the precise middle way. Well, if there's absolutely no actual proof of either position, my way makes sense, right? Zero for and zero against gives an exact 50/50 probability. And I'll take 'maddening' as a compliment! ;D
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Post by Dark Phoenix Rising on Oct 14, 2009 9:13:21 GMT
See my answer in reply #23, this answers your question about pride, and humanity being created perfect. Let's see, if we don't get our morality from the Bible... Why don't we just get rid of criminal penalties for murder? Why don't we promote rape? Why don't we allow thievery/stealing in society? etc. etc. Yeah, let's just throw away all the laws and live like a bunch of evolved monkeys! Since, after all, there is no God, NO CREATOR, and CREATION IS FALSE... This means that nothing's right, nothing's wrong! Because ultimately, God would've had to put patterns of law and codes of morality down for mankind... But hey! Since we've done away with God, why don't we just do away with all laws and regulations? ... It's NO WONDER the crime rate has gone up dramatically over the past 50 years, due to the decline of belief in God no doubt. Erm, given that pretty much every religion has penalties for all of the above, but they don't necessarily call them sins. And they won't necessarily affect your chances of getting into heaven, but they all agree that they should be punished, why wouldn't a society that is completely atheist not come up with the same rules? After all, the good of the community is more important than the desires of an individual. Esp. in a survival situation.
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