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Post by kilgoretrout on Oct 14, 2009 18:02:27 GMT
For the record , I ve lived a pretty stable life. Married for ten years , two kids , living in the same place for ten years , never been one to be destructive , not had many sexual partners , just sort of boring really , so no , nothing like that. I equate eternal life with selfishness , because to me thats all that it is. You are saying that without the prospect of your own reward , life is meaningless, I find that a selfish thing. I didn't say that, I said that without an afterlife, life is extremely short, and in a way pointless, since there's nothing after this life. If there's no judgement of your sins in an afterlife (since there's no afterlife at all), you might as well just life a destructive, selfish life. Nay, I equate NO afterlife as selfishness! To me , this thinking is selling humanity short. Can I not be kind and loving to my fellow human without some eternal reward? the consequences of a destructive life are seen in real time in this life , there really is no need to face consequences after one dies. What we do in this life has a natural set outcomes, even if they may not seem to satisfy the ego's need for justice to be served to those we view as "sinners". I feel like spiritual well being of those who are not concerned with selfish rewards and prizes in an afterlife is more genuine and human , and perhaps a bit more Christlike in attribute than those who only do good to gain a sweet God giftbag in the "afterlife" ... I have expressed my opinions here about the part of my view that "Heaven" cannot contain individuals because of the way that the self is developed through the world of sense perception , And what I mean is , the self , the ego , that is what pines for eternity, the being , well that is only to return to God, little human identity not included. We are God , his/it's will manifesting always , in perfect rythym and harmony with all natural order. The rest of the judgement dogma tail chasing is pure human game. A game to distract us from true divinity, which we possess , as children of the creator.
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Post by Elliot Kane on Oct 14, 2009 18:38:00 GMT
Erm, has anyone actually looked at figures and done corralations for your assertions Terror, as I'd expect that the % of each group that commit crimes will be roughly the same. You forgot one essential thing, DPR. Ask the average person who doesn't really think about religion at all what religion they are and what will their answer be? Given that they must give SOME answer?
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Post by Flix on Oct 14, 2009 20:57:39 GMT
Geez, EK, do you ever get tired of reading these same arguments 50 times a month and thinking, "I wrote all this up in an article already?" I suddenly have.
/Abandons thread.
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Post by Elliot Kane on Oct 14, 2009 21:46:14 GMT
Honestly? Yeah, sometimes, I do. But I can hardly expect anyone here to remember everything I've written, after all. That would not be fair or even reasonable. I write a lot of stuff.
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Post by ss on Oct 15, 2009 1:53:22 GMT
I equate eternal life with selfishness , because to me thats all that it is. You are saying that without the prospect of your own reward , life is meaningless, I find that a selfish thing. That would be fine, but Christianity doesn't teach that concept..It seems to me that you actually don't really understand what it teaches at all.
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Post by kilgoretrout on Oct 15, 2009 5:14:01 GMT
ss , I understand the concepts of the covenant and most , if not all , of the other ideas pushed by Christianity. I see it differently , my perspective is something else.
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Post by Dark Phoenix Rising on Oct 15, 2009 8:52:41 GMT
Erm, has anyone actually looked at figures and done corralations for your assertions Terror, as I'd expect that the % of each group that commit crimes will be roughly the same. You forgot one essential thing, DPR. Ask the average person who doesn't really think about religion at all what religion they are and what will their answer be? Given that they must give SOME answer? But what would you put on the forms? Non-practicing?
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Post by Elliot Kane on Oct 15, 2009 10:13:11 GMT
You forgot one essential thing, DPR. Ask the average person who doesn't really think about religion at all what religion they are and what will their answer be? Given that they must give SOME answer? But what would you put on the forms? Non-practicing? Anyone asked for their religion usually gives the reflex answer - which is the religion of the family or society they are raised in. Atheists usually come to their belief by reasoned decision, because there are no real Atheist communities. Ergo there are very few 'reflex Atheists'. Comparing Atheism with Christianity, Islam or any major communal religion is thus disingenuous at best. A far better comparison would be with, for example, Wiccans, Pagans or any other minority faith community whose adherents usually 'discover and adopt' in the same way.
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Post by Dark Phoenix Rising on Oct 15, 2009 11:20:26 GMT
Which is why I asked that question
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Post by Elliot Kane on Oct 15, 2009 11:53:54 GMT
Yeah, I know you know I don't think I'd bother asking the question, because the data you get would essentially be meaningless. It's like on the British census, where you'll find that most of Britain are practising Christians (Highly unlikely) and several thousand of us are Jedi...
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Post by Ubereil on Oct 15, 2009 16:06:41 GMT
Atheists usually come to their belief by reasoned decision, because there are no real Atheist communities. Ergo there are very few 'reflex Atheists'. I'd say most Swedes are. Übereil
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Post by Elliot Kane on Oct 15, 2009 18:43:01 GMT
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Post by Ubereil on Oct 15, 2009 19:53:06 GMT
Anyone asked for their religion usually gives the reflex answer - which is the religion of the family or society they are raised in. That was the question. None of those sources really ask that. But with that said my answer was nothing but my own guess. I was slightly off. It disagrees, but not "very strongly". After all, almost one out of four is an "atheist" (but not really an atheist, since all agnostics would probably fall into the category "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, God, or life force"). I believed "atheist" would be the biggest category, which was a bit off. It was disagreeing strongly with what I said, but that's another issue. That site claims there are 7,741,526 protestants in Sweden. That is utter rubbish. After all, 23% of the Swedish population would say "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, God, or life force" and 53% that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force". That doesn't sound like any brand of protestantism I've ever heard of. Now, Wiki might not be the most reliable source there is but the numbers are hardly not wrong by about 60 %... What do you mean by tithed? Do you mean that only religious pepole are paying church taxes? Why should I pay taxes to an institution I'm not even part of? Übereil
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Post by Elliot Kane on Oct 15, 2009 20:03:30 GMT
"Eight recognized religious denominations, in addition to the Church of Sweden, raise revenues through member-contributions made through the national tax system." - that would be tithing Just borrowing from Wiki, though I'm sure other sources will vary on the point somewhat, 72.9% of Swedes are member of the Church Of Sweden, as of the end of 2008. That's just one of NINE state-recognised and state-supported faiths in your country. That's also not including the growing number of Muslims, Pagans and members of other faiths. You do not have a society that could remotely be considered to be 'reflex Atheist' Ube, which was my point.
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Post by Ubereil on Oct 15, 2009 20:32:01 GMT
"Eight recognized religious denominations, in addition to the Church of Sweden, raise revenues through member-contributions made through the national tax system." - that would be tithing That's what I thought. Well, says something about or belief in taxes, doesn't it? ;D Just borrowing from Wiki, though I'm sure other sources will vary on the point somewhat, 72.9% of Swedes are member of the Church Of Sweden, as of the end of 2008. That's just one of NINE state-recognised and state-supported faiths in your country. That's also not including the growing number of Muslims, Pagans and members of other faiths. There's a big difference between being part of the church of Sweden and seeing oneself as protestant. Most pepole are members because they've always been members and they don't care enough to leave. This doesn't mean they'd answer 'yes' to the question 'are you Christian?'. I can't prove this since all I've got is my own personal experience. Which I've gotten from growing up in a completely secular family (neither my mom or dad are in the church. My father's in a Baptist assembly though. Hasn't put his foot in it for as long as I've known him, mind...) with mostly secular friends. You do not have a society that could remotely be considered to be 'reflex Atheist' Ube, which was my point. Not remotely, just give it 50 years... ;D Seriously though, if we go with the Wiki figures (which we have to since I couldn't find any suiting statistics on SCB.se) I thought the value would be about 15 units higher (around 40 %). However, that would still make my previous statement (most Swedes identify as atheists) wrong, since that would make 60 % religious. All in all, I've said more thought through things. "Lots of Swedes identify as atheists" would have been a much more accurate statement. By the way: Phil Zuckerman, an Associate Professor of Sociology at Pitzer College writes of several academic sources who have in recent years placed atheism rates in Sweden between 46% and 85%, with one source reporting that only 17% of respondents self-identified as "atheist". (from the Wiki article. Also:) Independent of these statistics, it is generally known that Swedish society, collectively, is comparatively secular and non-religious. (End quote.) That our society is secular and non-religious is much thanks to religion being seen as a private issue though. We don't generally talk about religion. Justifying your position with religion is generally seen as bad rethorics, so it's not brought up a lot in the public debate either. (I almost wrote: "Justifying your position is generally seen as bad rethorics". We're not THAT stupid. Most of the time, anyway. ) I don't see much point in continuing this debate, by the way. It's really a matter of getting better statistics. And it doesn't really affect the main point either: Most pepole identify as whatever their parents were/or what the official religion is. Swedes do that as much as most I think, whatever our "official religion" is. Übereil
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Post by Elliot Kane on Oct 15, 2009 20:52:55 GMT
Yes. I think we broadly agree, now, in fact. The general trend in the West as a whole is towards either a 'lighter' or more free-form type of religion, or none at all, but old reflexes die hard.
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