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Post by Elliot Kane on Jan 6, 2007 13:12:03 GMT
Never the kind of decision I like making, but in this thread Misty publicly admits to what she knows is a bannable offence: deliberately attempting to drive other boardies off the forum. The great strength of this board is that it is a friendly place where everyone is welcome, and I'd like to keep it that way. Deliberate attempts by any member to drive out other members, whether successful or not, are thus deeply unwelcome. It's an open and shut case, and most of you are probably wondering what the hold up has been. She's guilty, she admitted it: why did I not ban her immediately? The truth is, I do not get on with Misty. This has made me extremely reluctant to hit the ban button because I have to be absolutely certain I am banning her for the right reasons. If I make this in any way a personal decision I would be letting everyone down, not least myself. I believe that in order for any board or group or other social entity to function, the person or people making the rules must not only be fair, but be seen to be fair. This is why I explain all my decisions to you the way that I do, and I never mind if you criticise them. I absolutely will not run this forum on the basis of personal like or dislike. That would just be ruinous for everyone. So I took the time I needed to think this matter over properly, and to make sure my final decision was made for the good of the forum and for no other reason. I think it has been. As always, you are free to tell me how wrong I am.
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Post by Ubereil on Jan 6, 2007 14:43:42 GMT
I personally think you're overreacting a bit here. I think she was just makeing a joke, not trying to make him leave. And I SERIOUSLLY doubt BJC would leave for something like that (but then again, maybe I don't have all the facts).
Übereil
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Post by cleglaw on Jan 6, 2007 15:38:14 GMT
Her thread message looks pretty innocent to me. I also am not privy to all the facts.
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Post by Shan on Jan 6, 2007 17:26:18 GMT
Hmmmmm.......what she said in the thread looks innocent to me. I thought she was just messing around (joking) like we all do at times. I don't get it. *confused*
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Post by Terrordar on Jan 6, 2007 18:03:35 GMT
Yea, I honestly don't get it either.
If anything, it seemed more light hearted and joking.
And by the way, personal note-
If what I precieve is an overreacting administrator keeps up, I may leave myself. So I hope these kind of controversial decisions aren't gonna happen often.
And its not like I like Misty, I barely knew the girl. But its the fact that as far as I can tell, she was banned from poor logic and paranoid reasoning.
It doesn't help the community as a whole is someone is shot out of a cannon for no reason, and I'd rather not be apart of a community that's being run more off uneasy paranoia, then solid factiness.
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Post by Venom65437 on Jan 6, 2007 18:28:47 GMT
I definitely think you're overreacting. I think she was just making a joke over that completely stupid situation of that game you guys where all playing. I really don't think she admitted to saying anything there. So unless BJC comes back and says otherwise, I think your overreacting.
Is that maybe uncalled for? Perhaps. Banable? I completely disagree.
Either way, I think most everyone knows you two didn't like each other, so now that it's happened, the situation really can't be put right.
But as usual, it's your board, so you should do things your way. I'll still be here, even if I don't agree with the situation. But maybe in the future, (and maybe you did do this, I don't know,) when it comes to someone you don't like you should defer to Steve?
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Post by sps1000 on Jan 6, 2007 21:23:07 GMT
I also think banning Misty was a mistake. What I see is lighthearted fun and learning by his mistake I think she meant leaving the Cascade in the first place. She even hopes she had nothing to do with it.
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Post by Gray Lensman on Jan 6, 2007 23:26:10 GMT
I, for one, am no fonder of this situation than any of you. This is not the kind of decision that should be made lightly, or without good reason. Certainly not one that I would like to see happen again. I regret that this was deemed necessary.
This charge is a most serious one. It affects the core of what Chaos is about. To me, Chaos should be a place that is open and welcome towards all. Disputes are normal and acceptable. Attempting to drive someone off is not. That kind of behavior poisons the fun and friendly atmosphere that we hope to maintain, and should not be tolerated.
I realize that a number of you have misgivings about this decision. I understand and respect that, and think no less of anyone for having honest disagreement. I hope, however, that all of you will understand that Elliot did not make this decision lightly, or without considering the matter carefully.
Personally, I believe that Misty did admit to committing a bannable offense. I believe that she deliberately hid her admission as a joke, so she could backtrack, deny, and claim it was a joke if she was called out. I firmly believe that Misty attempted to force BJC out of the site, and as such I support the ban.
That having been said, I can see how Misty's comments might seem innocent to a number of you. Seen from the outside, I can understand why some of you might think so, and I respect that. However, there was considerably more involved in this decision.
I support the ban on the basis of certain things that were said to me in confidence, which I can't discuss in public. As those who know me well can attest, I take my confidences very seriously. I will, however, say that this information is reliable and credible, and was taken very seriously indeed.
I discussed this situation with Elliot prior to the banning. While he made the decision ultimately, I chose to support the ban. I do not believe that Misty has learned from Nights' example. Until now, I had hoped that she might. However, this incident illustrated to me that she hasn't learned from the past. Sadly, I doubt she ever will.
As far as I am concerned, Misty is no longer welcome here. Nor is anyone who would attempt to drive another member from this site. It does the board and this community no good to allow this kind of behavior to continue.
For my part, I sincerely hope this will be our last banning for some time. I find banning distasteful as a general rule. I do, however, hope that you understand that we felt this one necessary for the good of the board.
I leave the situation to each of you to decide for yourselves as you see fit, according to your own conscience. I hope, even if you cannot necessarily agree, that you can respect our position as we do yours.
Steve
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Post by Terrordar on Jan 6, 2007 23:28:42 GMT
Right, and the paranoia gets even worse.
Yes, this place is looking more and more 'fun' by the moment.
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Post by Ubereil on Jan 6, 2007 23:42:58 GMT
Us not respecting you (or your decision) was never (at least not for me) part of the picture.
Übereil
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Post by Venom65437 on Jan 7, 2007 0:16:48 GMT
You guys can do whatever you want, but I think everyone should know what was said that was so bad. It's no secret that Misty and Elliot didn't like each other and this just smells of finally having an excuse to get rid of her while saving face.
So until we're shown some evidence otherwise I look at this decision with a VERY questionable eye.
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Post by Shan on Jan 7, 2007 4:16:50 GMT
I agree with Venom.
I still think Misty was joking around like alot of us do. I don't see as she admitted to anything.
This scares me too. It makes me wonder if I can still joke and mess around with my friends on this board without being banned too?
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Post by Terrordar on Jan 7, 2007 9:44:08 GMT
The logic behind 'keeping people safe!' is also utterly flawed.
Not one person would lift a finger to help Misty if evidence was revealed as to why she was honestly banned. Not ONE.
So whoever was invovled, guess what? Wouldn't get any blowback.
The less evidence we get, the more it looks like there is no evidence, Alex. So you and Jimmy T over there can keep up the 'cat and mouse' game, but at the end of the day, this board is more damaged by someone NOT showing us WHY she was banned, then someone showing it.
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Post by Glance A'Lot on Jan 7, 2007 11:16:22 GMT
Voicing a dissenting opinion in the appropriate thread is one thing - and in this instance I can share the dissenting from what I've seen so far.
But a signature banner like the above is an open sign of disrespect to the administrators of this board and their decision, which automatically spreads into all threads posted and such I would consider inappropriate and offensive.
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Post by sps1000 on Jan 7, 2007 15:49:46 GMT
I had to think long and hard about this but after Misty's actions in the chat last night (don't ask me how she got in) I now agree with the descision to ban Misty. Misty attacked Lisa on the spot because Misty claimed that BJC was Lisa, and also BJC was lying about his age. It got so bad that Maddie left the chat. Now if that doesn't prove Elliot's point I don't know what does. I will not defend someone who attacks people and makes wild allegations that someone who we've known for an age is not all that he claims to be especially without proof. That seems like a deliberate attempt to drive people away to me.
*Begin short rant feel free to ignore* I may have earned the wrath of some people here but I will not sit idly by when someone not only doesn't know when to quit but is also ruining my enjoyment in the chatroom and attacking my friends. *End short rant*
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Post by Bad Wolf on Jan 7, 2007 16:56:07 GMT
From what I have observe I believe that favoritism issue that was raise when I first got here has raised it\'s ugly head again. Clearly some favoritism was use when making this move. I know I will probably be told I am crazy for saying so.
When I was in the chat asking Elliot questions about the situation so I could figure out what was going on. Any serious question caused him to get defensive or refer to third parties he must protect or secret evidence. From what I have read about the last ban there was also some issues on secret third parties and what not. This makes things appear very cloak and dagger. I think when a banning is an issue there should be a clear cut reason and not some vague one given connecting to some secret things/people that can\'t be mention. We are all not stupid here and can deal with truth.
I find it very distasteful that the girl apparently got no notice to why she was banned or even warning. Elliot admits not to talking to the girl because he disliked her. This also seems to be in bad form on the administrator’s part. The girl and the rest of us has to rely on third party information coming from people who aren’t given much to pass on since their actions could be seen as less than legitimate.
Elliot is a very bright person but he seems at least to me from what I have seen of him to be using a lot of his own personal biasness with the choice he has made here.
I personally call into question the ethics of this ban and the actions of some of the members of the boards afterwards.
On the issue of the signature, where you might find it distasteful and disrespectful but it’s perfectly within Terrordar rights to do as he wish with his signature and he hasn’t broken any rules set for signatures on this board. I frankly encourage the questioning of authority when you find there actions lacking because if you don’t question them who will.
I will be trying to contact the banned party because I would like to get her side of the story. For every story has three sides to tell. The sides of the two parties involved and then the truth, I always prefer the side of truth to anything else.
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Post by Elliot Kane on Jan 7, 2007 17:32:44 GMT
One correction, Bad Wolf, as your memory is obviously playing tricks on you. I said that I had not talked to Misty because the only way she ever 'talks' to me involves insulting me, calling me a liar, or deliberately misunderstanding everything I say. That is not even remotely the same as 'because I do not like her' as I hope you will agree.
I do find your own choice of interests on this board to be fascinating, though, I must admit, and I would encourage everyone to look up your prior posts and draw their own conclusions. I just wish I knew what your motives were for all this.
***
As for Terrordar, well, there's no 'don't argue with or insult the admins' rule and there never will be as long as I run this place. His signature is up to him as long as it does not contravene the rules, and there's nothing there that does.
***
I've said it before, and I'll doubtless say it again: anything told to me in confidence STAYS that way. If I start telling everyone's secrets evey time it becomes convenient for me or I get put under a bit of pressure, who in their right mind would ever trust me? And without that trust, how could I ever run this forum effectively?
Where secrets rightfully belong to other people, it is their choice whether to share them or not. It is as simple as that.
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Post by Bad Wolf on Jan 7, 2007 18:05:07 GMT
I prefer lurking. A friend invited me to the boards and speaks of them regularly when we chat. I read the boards regularly most of time I don’t even bother to log in because all I do is lurk. I didn’t realize I had to have post count to voice my opinion that I only do when I think something massively wrong or something odd is going on. I found it interesting you would elude that because I don’t agree with you on some points that I am some have some other motives. It comes off a tad paranoid.
From way you were coming off in chat Elliot it would seem that you are hiding something and that the problem. Personally I don’t think you have a witness and are hiding behind this veil of honor so you don’t look to bad.
You seem to be presuming a lot. That I am doing something sinister because what few topics lure me out of lurk. Also that someone would deliberate misunderstand unless you have telepathic ability that can read minds from miles away you can’t say it’s deliberate. Some people do misunderstand people it’s the failing of human communication.
I still don’t think your reasons hold water or that you are right for not personally telling the person ban why just because it‘s hassle for you. You being the administration here give you responsibility that does require you to deal with people you don’t get on well with. Just because it’s hard or you don’t want to is not a good enough reason not to do it. If you wanted to take the easy way you shouldn’t be an admin.
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Mea Culpa
Chaosite
Paladine Extraordinaire
Posts: 505
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Post by Mea Culpa on Jan 7, 2007 19:24:04 GMT
well my tuppence worth: not knowing any of the issues involved I can only say, I trust EK, having said that, for any future happenings like this, maybe you should have a "council of war" with the other mods, make a separate topic that only the mods can read and state the case then ask for a reply, this way you are likely to get advice (may it be good or bad) and can make your decision with peace of mind
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Post by Terrordar on Jan 7, 2007 19:25:26 GMT
I had to think long and hard about this but after Misty's actions in the chat last night (don't ask me how she got in) I now agree with the descision to ban Misty. Misty attacked Lisa on the spot because Misty claimed that BJC was Lisa, and also BJC was lying about his age. It got so bad that Maddie left the chat. Now if that doesn't prove Elliot's point I don't know what does. I will not defend someone who attacks people and makes wild allegations that someone who we've known for an age is not all that he claims to be especially without proof. That seems like a deliberate attempt to drive people away to me. *Begin short rant feel free to ignore* I may have earned the wrath of some people here but I will not sit idly by when someone not only doesn't know when to quit but is also ruining my enjoyment in the chatroom and attacking my friends. *End short rant* Just for the record SPS, if I were banned for no reason, I'd be lashing out at people too. Misty's gone, she's not coming back even if this ban somehow comes out as 'wrongful'. But I want evidence that someone was banned for something more then a bunch of contrived bull[Censored] I don't like Nights, I hate Nights. I don't particularly like Misty, at best whenever I have had contact with hers, its been tollerable, as in contrast to her brother. But yea, if I was banned and found a voice in the chat? You are damn right I'd go in there and be angry. Everyone knows that. So the idea that someone is 'guilty' based off angry actions after being banned for no reason, isn't quite sittin' well with me. I don't expect Misty to come back, I expect evidence as to why she was given the boot. Real evidence, not monkey-see-monkey-do bull[Censored]
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