metalliman98
Apprentice
Is this the five o'clock free crack giveaway???
Posts: 195
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Post by metalliman98 on Jun 10, 2007 19:57:25 GMT
So I'm facing something of a job-related ethical quandry, and I was hoping I could get some advice on how to handle it from my fellow Cascaders.
I work for the state of California, and our job requires a lot of travel. All of our travel expenses are reimbursed; food, hotel and gas.
Well, this past week, a group of us traveled about 120 miles out of town. I have very strong reason to believe (I am about 99.9% sure) that one of my coworkers car pooled with another worker. Now that is a bit unusal for our job, we almost always drive our own cars, but there is nothing at all wrong with it. However, what is wrong is that I am also pretty sure she plans to claim mileage on her expense claim for the trip. At our current reimbursement rate, she stands to get about $114 in mileage reimbursement for gas she did not buy and wear and tear she did not put on her car.
So I am not sure how to proceed at this point. She has not filed the claim yet, and of course I have no right to see it before she gives it to her supervisor, so I can't go to her supervisor before she submits it and accuse her of something she has not yet done. I would also feel weird approaching her supervisor and telling her what I suspect, mostly because I am afraid that if she does not end up claiming it I will look like a jackass.
At this point I am not even sure I should say anything at all, although I know Ethics 101 says I must do or say something or I am just as guilty. On one hand it is a relatively small amount and I don't want to engender bad feelings amongst my other coworkers. I also don't want to see this coworker fired, which is a good possibility if she were to get caught. However, it is not definite, and so if she were to remain with the department the harsh feelings would be amplified. However, on the other hand, I know that claiming the mileage would be wrong, no matter what amount she stands to make.
The best solution I can think of at this point is this: I share a cubicle with her supervisor and have a pretty good working relationship with her as well. While discussing this most recent job I could casually mention how weird it was that my coworker carpooled with some of my other coworkers. That way, if and when my coworker turned in her expense claim, the supervisor would not be expecting to see mileage claims for those dates and if she did, she would then question my coworker. This way, I am not openly accusing my coworker of fraud, but still alerting the supervisor in case it happens.
What do you all think? Any suggestions, ideas, advice?
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Post by Elliot Kane on Jun 11, 2007 1:13:49 GMT
One sneaky thing you could try is to talk to your co-worker when the supervisor can clearly overhear, saying you were surprised that she car pooled when she doesn't usually. This could well head the problem off before it even arises, and may actually be the best course as it will involve doing the right thing without anybody getting hurt. If this is not possible, I think the best thing you can do is stay out of it totally. At this point it amounts to gossip based on something that may or may not even happen. If you say nothing and she claims for expenses, that's on her conscience and a matter for her and her supervisor. You might not approve (And it's certainly nothing I think anyone should approve of, let alone do!) but that will be the end of the matter. On the other hand if she claims and you tell on her, not only might you get her fired (A possibility) but also it could rebound badly on you. Your supervisor might be happier, but your other co-workers will wonder how much they can trust you and what you might choose to tell the boss next if they know who told - and it will be obvious someone did. If they don't know it's you who told, an air of general suspicion may well descend, especially if your co-worker gets the sack or is harshly disciplined. That won't help your working environment one bit. Hope this helps
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Post by ss on Jun 11, 2007 3:15:54 GMT
It is a tough position to be in Metal...I agree with EK, you should probably let it alone...also could (as you say) be anticipatory grief on your part..she may not make the claim...and even if she does, you cannot force her to be honest...but you can be viewed as a snitch that your co-workers will not trust as they also may well believe it is ok to make a false claim... Honest people such as yourself that have ethical standards are rare this day and age..I commend you You were only 99.9 percent sure that she actually did car pool.. I think you should probably just bite the bullet on this one...
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metalliman98
Apprentice
Is this the five o'clock free crack giveaway???
Posts: 195
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Post by metalliman98 on Jun 11, 2007 4:31:46 GMT
See, the thing about this coworker is that it wouldn't weigh heavily on her conscience to do this. Case in point, a couple of months ago, on her way out of town for work, she got a speeding ticket. When she got to the worksite, she complained about it, saying that if it wasn't for the fact that the job required her to drive out of town, she wouldn't have gotten the ticket, and neither would she have gotten into an accident as she did on her way to another job in February. For about the next hour, I tried to explain to her that while she was technically correct that she wouldn't have gotten into the accident or gotten the ticket if she hadn't been driving for the job, that fact is really beside the point; she got the ticket/accident because she was driving too fast/unsafely! The subtlety of the argument was lost on her though, and she continued to place the blame on the job instead of taking responsibility for her own actions. Based on this, I really think she would have no qualms about claiming the mileage.
It really makes me mad that if you do the ethical thing, you get shunned. Like the steroid scandal in baseball, some idiot sportshow host was saying how Jason Giambi was " a stand-up guy who would never tell which players used steroids". Umm, excuse me??? Are we applauding someone who refuses to do the right thing by exposing those who are cheating? It makes me sick.
SS, when I said 99.9% sure she carpooled........I never saw her get into her own car, and never saw her car at all (in the parking lot of our worksite or our hotel), nor did I see a state car. She brought her suitcase into the jobsite with her on the last day we were there (my thinking is because at that time she had no trunk to put it into). Finally, she had to ask someone to drive her back to the hotel on Thursday, and when asked why she said it was because she rode to the jobsite with someone else and forgot he would be leaving that day because he would be on vacation on Friday. At that time, I thought she had just carpooled with him from the hotel to the jobsite for whatever reason, but putting it all together, it looks like she carpooled the whole trip. The only reason I am 99.9% sure instead of 100% is because I did not see how she arrived into town when the job started, nor how she left after we were finished, though I have definite ideas about who drove her each time.
I suppose I should just bite the bullet, but it really irks me when stuff like this happens. I know I can't change her thought process or her behavior, but at the same time I don't think I can just let it go, because then it would weigh on my conscience.
Having said all that, I think I will go with EK's first suggestion. It seems to be the best way to slip out from between this rock and a hard place.
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Post by Elliot Kane on Jun 11, 2007 4:37:17 GMT
I absolutely applaud your ethics, Metalliman, and I hope all goes well for you Your co-worker sounds like a real pain.
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Post by Venom65437 on Jun 11, 2007 6:54:44 GMT
Over $114? I would not stir the pot over such a small amount...
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Post by Ubereil on Jun 11, 2007 10:24:27 GMT
I wonder how many children in africa that ammount could feed....
Besides, I think you can get TV's for that ammount of cash. Not good ones, but still.
Übereil
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Post by Glance A'Lot on Jun 11, 2007 11:12:26 GMT
There may be another solution - public travel expense regulations I know (and it may be worth investigating the one applicable to your case) allow the one who took one extra passenger to claim a small addition in the mileage compensation. So if this should be the case, then give the 3rd person a tip on how to correctly fill in his travel expense claim - then he who controls the claims will be responsible to see any conflicting claims - or a future audit will.
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Post by Galadriel on Jun 11, 2007 12:44:46 GMT
Metalliman You have to do what your heart tells you to do, if your principals are honest, you have to talk about it. You can try to talk to your co-worker that it wouldn't be fair to claim the money that is not hers. It's a risk, but if she still claims the money, you can tell her that you are gonna talk to her supervisor. On the other hand, the amount she wants is not that big, you can leave it alone if you don't want trouble. If the atmosphere at your work is good now, then don't tell anyone. You can just talk to her like I said in the above. Third option is, you can tell her you know the truth, and that she has to give you 50% of the money ;D
Good luck either way Metalliman!
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Post by winlok on Jun 11, 2007 14:39:21 GMT
There is right and there is wrong, but the real dillemma is found in the communication. Some people would argue that the right thing to do is not rock the boat, and others would say it's the wrong thing to do. Some would say the right thing to do is to say something, and others would say it's the wrong thing to do. You see communication is the key. What started out as an ethical problem, is now a moral obligation. $114.00 may not be a great deal, but it could easily grow into an epidemic. Apparently some people have dillusions of grandeur. <---see Venny (do you really think I would let that slip by. HAHAHA!IMPORTANT: When you get the slip that signifies your expenses for that particular job, talk to your co-worker not your boss. There is no need to threaten her or he, they know what they did. In there mind it may be insignificant, but it's your moral obligation.
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Mea Culpa
Chaosite
Paladine Extraordinaire
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Post by Mea Culpa on Jun 11, 2007 16:50:43 GMT
Hmm ... my feeling bout ppl like that (and I have met a few in my industry) is that given enough rope they will hang them self ... see ppl "like" that you can not stop they will keep on doing it, simply because they "think" they can get away with it ... eventually they will get caught! And then imagine their expression ... cause they will "still" believe that what they did was not wrong! So if I was you I wait till it happens, else you will become an outsider/whistleblower to your other co-workers, meantime relax and if it makes you feel better keep a diary of those events
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Post by winlok on Jun 11, 2007 18:31:50 GMT
There you have it, wait till it happens or until you get the expense slip.
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Post by Venom65437 on Jun 11, 2007 21:27:27 GMT
Didn't say I was ok with someone potentially stealing money, I just don't think $114 is enough to stir the pot at work. A lot of bad things can happen when you stir the pot at work...
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Post by janggut on Jun 12, 2007 3:02:46 GMT
hey metalliman my view on this is that u can advise the person (whether it is futile or not is beside the point) but to let the supervisor know about it when u are only 99.9% sure (no solid irrefutable proof) is not a wise thing to do.
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metalliman98
Apprentice
Is this the five o'clock free crack giveaway???
Posts: 195
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Post by metalliman98 on Jun 13, 2007 1:33:23 GMT
Thanks for all the advice guys. She actually came over and talked to me about it (we were hired at the same time and went through training together, so we have a friendly relationship, though her recent behavior has really lowered my repect for her). I guess other people had noticed the same things I had noticed and been suspicious of it too, especially because she was being evasive when it came to questions like "Didn't you drive your car this week?" and "Why is so-and-so driving you?". She told me that she had already talked to the manager about her expense options and had no plans to claim the mileage (which I don't entirely believe, if other sources are correct) but didn't think it was anybody's business how she got to the job and that's why she was being evasive. All she had to say was "I decided to carpool with so-and-so", and that would have ended things, but then she wouldn't have been able to claim the mileage as I think she was planning to do.
Anyway, the issue resolved itself. I didn't have to report anyone, and the state gets to keep its $114. Which brings up an interesting point. Venom, you say that amount is not enough to report someone. At what point is the amount enough? $1000? Let's say you said $1000 is the minimum, and one day you found out that your coworker made a false claim for $999. Do you report then? If so, why, its below the minimum?
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Post by Elliot Kane on Jun 13, 2007 1:42:18 GMT
Glad to hear everything worked out well for you, Metalliman
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Post by killerzzz on Jun 13, 2007 3:15:47 GMT
Glad to hear everything worked out well for you, Metalliman Not completely it seems. Now he's stuck podering on an ethical delemma of the sort that might once more come his way eventually. All I can say is: follo' your gut. Don't make a rash decision, weigh the factors, allow space for it to resolve itself, and take (or not take) action according to what you instinctively (and intelligably) believe you must do. I think. Sounds right enough. >.< ;D Killerzzz
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Post by Venom65437 on Jun 13, 2007 6:31:54 GMT
Thanks for all the advice guys. She actually came over and talked to me about it (we were hired at the same time and went through training together, so we have a friendly relationship, though her recent behavior has really lowered my repect for her). I guess other people had noticed the same things I had noticed and been suspicious of it too, especially because she was being evasive when it came to questions like "Didn't you drive your car this week?" and "Why is so-and-so driving you?". She told me that she had already talked to the manager about her expense options and had no plans to claim the mileage (which I don't entirely believe, if other sources are correct) but didn't think it was anybody's business how she got to the job and that's why she was being evasive. All she had to say was "I decided to carpool with so-and-so", and that would have ended things, but then she wouldn't have been able to claim the mileage as I think she was planning to do. Anyway, the issue resolved itself. I didn't have to report anyone, and the state gets to keep its $114. Which brings up an interesting point. Venom, you say that amount is not enough to report someone. At what point is the amount enough? $1000? Let's say you said $1000 is the minimum, and one day you found out that your coworker made a false claim for $999. Do you report then? If so, why, its below the minimum? Well, seeing as I don't have your job it's hard for me to say what a minimum amount would be. I get what your point is, but with a situation like this, I think you just have to trust your gut. If you think the amount is worth stirring the pot at work, then that's fine.
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Post by Glance A'Lot on Jun 13, 2007 11:54:11 GMT
In general such issues are not a matter of single case value, but more of individual attitude.
Whoever will be unethical for a small amount, will be so for a number of small amounts - it almost never is a one time deal. So even if one has knowledge, or proof, of only one occurrence - in the long run the damage accumulates, and the attitude is detrimental to the ethics and morale of the group.
So, unless it can be clearly identified as a honest mistake everyone can make once in a while, I'm in favor of stepping in early rather than being faced later with still the same problem at a greater magnitude.
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Post by janggut on Jun 13, 2007 13:01:50 GMT
that much i agree, Glance. however this is more of an ethical quandary whereby do we impose our ethics to others, or are we enforcers of our employer's set of ethics, how far do we extend our sense of justice, etc etc.
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