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Post by hector on Jun 6, 2005 3:18:31 GMT
Not unless you take the Bible word for word literally.
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Post by Elliot Kane on Jun 6, 2005 3:24:47 GMT
Even then, Hec, IIRC... Granted I might be wrong on that one. But the Bible doesn't even explicitly state that there is only one God, so there's a lot that is open to interpretation, I'd say
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Post by Terrordar on Jun 6, 2005 4:12:48 GMT
There are forms of creationism that state God made the earth and evolution is just something that happens.
I've been looking into the many forms of creationism for the last few days.
Its not all as insan- I mean unlikely sa the young Earth Creationism (thinking the world is 6,000-10,000 years old)
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Post by hector on Jun 6, 2005 4:36:36 GMT
It all depends on how it is interpreted, certainly. But one of the current Creationism belief is that it happened exactly as it was described, with no room for metaphorical value. Adam was created from the earth, six days (as in our 24 hours days) it took God to create the Universe, etc. Not how *I* would interpret it since I was, I don't know 10? having both science and cathecism class with apparently contradictory claims. It does state with absolute certainity that He created all that it is, and that no other shall be worshiped, being jealous God as Phil said in the other thread. Which is something else I've always have had a problem with, anger, love, jealousy, all human feelings we are ascribing to the Infinite, Immanent One.
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Post by philster on Jun 6, 2005 4:40:39 GMT
Well, God made us in his own image, albeit we are flawed. He's just the perfection we aspire to be.
As Buffy said (in correcting me), God's emotions are always righteous.
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Post by hector on Jun 6, 2005 4:48:31 GMT
Well, God made us in his own image, albeit we are flawed. And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. --- Genesis, 2:7. Again, we are back into interpreting the Bible literally or metaphorically. 'Dust in the ground' (whatever materiels He made us from) could be, well, dust. But It could also be whatever form we had before we evolved into our current state i.e. So God created man in his own image
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Post by Terrordar on Jun 6, 2005 5:14:19 GMT
Ok, I just have to ask this question as well-
So many of you seem *so* certain in your faith, which isn't a bad thing, however, it is just that. 100%, just straight up faith, there is no factual evidence to support it.
Now, I'm going to assume those who have a strong faith in a book that talks about god/whater, you were raised off this book?
Because I'm just saying, there is absolutely no evidence to support creationism to speak of, and please, humor me. If you say-
"Well the evidence is that we are here!!!" I can assure you, you will immediately lose all respect I possibly have for you.
Now, I'm just asking this seriously, how can you have such blind faith, because that is what it is, in something that has yet to be proved, and will most likely, never be proven?
Does it have to do with the lessons said book teaches you? Is it because you were raised that way? I'm just wondering.
Because, I will repeat this again, there is no evidence god exists, no evidence of an afterlife, or any form of creationism. I'm hoping this doesn't go out of bounds, as I don't want to offend someone, I am just wondering.
Quick note- Near death experiences can be attributed to multiple things, please do not use these as evidence. Lack of oxygen to the brain can do wonders.
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Post by philster on Jun 6, 2005 6:45:27 GMT
The evidence is that we are here.
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Post by Terrordar on Jun 6, 2005 6:47:42 GMT
Phil just went from a 9/10 of coolness, to a 2/10. Shame on you Phil, shame
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Post by philster on Jun 6, 2005 6:49:59 GMT
*Shrugs* I'm not looking for your respect, nor am I looking to stir the pot like you do all the time.
My real answer is that yes I was raised to be a Christian with the most loving parents you can imagine. Everything in my being screams that there is a God. I know that it is not sufficient evidence to prove anything but then again that's what faith is all about.
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Buffy
Chaosite
Posts: 786
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Post by Buffy on Jun 6, 2005 9:32:05 GMT
Because, I will repeat this again, there is no evidence god exists, no evidence of an afterlife, or any form of creationism. I'm hoping this doesn't go out of bounds, as I don't want to offend someone, I am just wondering.
There IS evidence in creationism's side, but none for God or afterlife.
However, Science has given an answer to neither either.
And if you take Freewill seriously, God cant come out of the sky and say "i exsist." Taking choice away.
So, the only way to go, is faith. A faith that is rewarded.
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Post by Elliot Kane on Jun 6, 2005 10:59:39 GMT
Buff's pulled out the essential fact here, I think. There is no proof whatsoever of how the universe was created, be it by God or some kind of cosmic accident, so anything we believe in that line is a matter of faith. The fact is that we are here, and we must have begun somewhere, for some reason. Whether that reason was accident or design, we do not know. Proof of the existence of the divine (Not necessarily God singular, but one or more creator beings) comes, for me, from the way the universe is so finely balanced between Order & Chaos. It is an ever shifting web of changing pattern - and the patterns ARE there, in everything. I would have expected pure random chance to be less organised So I have sought and found proof that satisfies me. It may not work for you or others, and is certainly a topic to be expounded upon in another thread if anyone is interested in hearing it. (As an afternote, I should add that I use my own definitions of 'Order' and 'Chaos' here. Order is the force of pattern, of stability; Chaos is the force of change)
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BJC
Apprentice
We Own The Night
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Post by BJC on Jun 6, 2005 13:09:35 GMT
Phil just went from a 9/10 of coolness, to a 2/10. Shame on you Phil, shame His coolness took a hit, but its true.
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BJC
Apprentice
We Own The Night
Posts: 301
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Post by BJC on Jun 6, 2005 13:12:01 GMT
There are forms of creationism that state God made the earth and evolution is just something that happens. I've been looking into the many forms of creationism for the last few days. Its not all as insan- I mean unlikely sa the young Earth Creationism (thinking the world is 6,000-10,000 years old) Well guess what.....whoever says that.....the cheese has fallen out of thier sandwhiches....evolution is the complete oposite of what God tells you right out. IN THE BIBLE.
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Post by Elliot Kane on Jun 6, 2005 14:16:59 GMT
That's not actually true, BJC. As Hec has already pointed out, a lot of what is said in the Bible can be interpreted in many different ways - which is one reason among many why there are so many different translations of the original Latin text, and many interpretations by many different Christian sects on exactly what is meant. Theology is not a simple subject at all. Ask Buff
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BJC
Apprentice
We Own The Night
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Post by BJC on Jun 6, 2005 16:05:32 GMT
From my POV, the bible is very clear on what it says, which it will give you a specific answer to any specific question.....no contradictions.
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Post by Terrordar on Jun 6, 2005 18:59:32 GMT
There IS evidence in creationism's side, but none for God or afterlife. However, Science has given an answer to neither either. And if you take Freewill seriously, God cant come out of the sky and say "i exsist." Taking choice away. So, the only way to go, is faith. A faith that is rewarded. Actually, some studies show when people die, they lose an immensely small amount of weight, a few grams, if this is a "soul" leaving the body, aka, matter being transformed into energy, it could be the one, smallest bit of evidence towards proving an afterlife. However, as far as creationism goes, do tell me, where is the overwhelming scientific evidence you have? So far, I have yet to see it. You have attacked the ability to date the earth You have attacked Evolution You have attacked the idea that god may work through evolution. As if to say "By default, if these theories are wrong, Creationism is right!", which is not the case. One cannot just attack the other side, and say evidence is in the bible. It doesn't work that way. Please, show me some of these that support creationism. And when I say that, I mean, try not to use the bible, because it won't float, it just won't.
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Post by Terrordar on Jun 6, 2005 19:44:41 GMT
I am going to quote Isaac Asimov at this time, I have read a past article of his on Creationism, and here you go- This is only a fragment of it, and the quote is taken within the context of which it was seem (meaning I'm not cutting out important parts) "A watch implies a watchmaker, say the creationists. If you were to find a beautifully intricate watch in the desert, far from habitation, you would be sure that it had been fashioned by human hands and somehow left it there. It would pass the bounds of credibility that it had simply formed, spontaneously, from the sands of the desert. By analogy, then, if you consider humanity, life, Earth, and the universe, all infinitely more intricate than a watch, you can believe far less easily that it "just happened." It, too, like the watch, must have been fashioned, but by more-than-human hands—in short by a divine Creator. This argument seems unanswerable, and it has been used (even though not often explicitly expressed) ever since the dawn of consciousness. To have explained to prescientific human beings that the wind and the rain and the sun follow the laws of nature and do so blindly and without a guiding would have been utterly unconvincing to them. In fact, it might have well gotten you stoned to death as a blasphemer. There are many aspects of the universe that still cannot be explained satisfactorily by science; but ignorance only implies ignorance that may someday be conquered. To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today. In short, the complexity of the universe—and one's inability to explain it in full—is not in itself an argument for a Creator." The article is a little old, but it entirely reflects what's happening today, so please make note. It also has a lot ot do with Creationism being possibly taught in schools- www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/azimov_creationism.htmlI realize this not will change the views of anyone here, who has already decided that the world is 6000 years old, however for those otherwise, its a good read
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BJC
Apprentice
We Own The Night
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Post by BJC on Jun 6, 2005 21:03:51 GMT
There IS evidence in creationism's side, but none for God or afterlife. However, Science has given an answer to neither either. And if you take Freewill seriously, God cant come out of the sky and say "i exsist." Taking choice away. So, the only way to go, is faith. A faith that is rewarded. Actually, some studies show when people die, they lose an immensely small amount of weight, a few grams, if this is a "soul" leaving the body, aka, matter being transformed into energy, it could be the one, smallest bit of evidence towards proving an afterlife. However, as far as creationism goes, do tell me, where is the overwhelming scientific evidence you have? So far, I have yet to see it. You have attacked the ability to date the earth You have attacked Evolution You have attacked the idea that god may work through evolution. Your right....no proof of creation....in fact your not even there ;D Ever wonder why what the bible says is exact to what you see everyday? hm. Attacked? Proving wrong and attacking- theres a difference.
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Post by Terrordar on Jun 6, 2005 21:31:24 GMT
How is it proving wrong? Constantly every time creationists attempt to prove Evolution wrong, within a short peroid of time, we discover more about how it works, and it ends up disproving the points made. Evolution is a vastly complex proceedure. And I use the word attack, as it seemed most fitting. Most of the time when I prove a creationist wrong, they claim I attack their beliefs And also, you have yet to prove anything wrong, I have managed to reply to almost every accusation said on this topic, as I go out, and I do my research on it. And I'm not even a scientist! So please, do not feed me that "we are proving you wrong" line, I have seen little to no evidence put forth to prove any claims made so far that evolution is wrong. Especially when we have seen plants evolve, and we have seen bactera and single celled organisms do so frequently. That is evidence, something creationism has never put forward. Their are multiple theories on how evolution works, but among the scientific community, there is an overwhelming majority who say, "Evolution is real". Darwin's theories have been built off of and changed, he had the basic principals right, he himself, was infact quite wrong. And the bible is a book written by human beings, god did not write it, if he had any involement in its creation, I doubt it was significant. It is a tool of control, and is a tool of keeping people's thoughts in line. So, show me your OVERWHELMING evidence that proves Evolution wrong, without using the bible. Because the bible can never be, and will never be proven accurate. It is "faith".
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