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Post by Terrordar on Jun 2, 2005 6:16:34 GMT
I've been spending more and more of my free time, looking into prehistoric creatures lately, of all kinds, birds (dinosaurs), Mammals, fish, ect.
Yet-
How does the Religious groups explain these things?
I have to know, what possible answer do they have, to evolution, in regards to the creatures that existed hundreds of million of years before us.
And that in some cases, bear strong resemblences to creatures today, or even are similar enough, that we are very likely to assume what they evolved to.
I am just confused by all this, I've never seen an argument that could explain creatures from hundreds of millions of years ago. From LONG before Adam and Eve (if that ever existed)
Or even other species of humans for that matter, like Neanderthal man....
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Post by hector on Jun 2, 2005 6:30:57 GMT
You mean besides covering their eyes and ears and going 'lalalalala'? You might find a clue here but I warn you, your head might explode. BTW, not all religious groups think that way. The Catholic Church and many other forms of Christianity accept Evolution and the methaphorical value of the tales contained in the Bible. Only the stupid ones don't.
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Post by Terrordar on Jun 2, 2005 6:50:33 GMT
*blink*
...
*blink*
WHAT THE [Censored]ING HELL WAS THAT BULLSHIT?
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Post by hector on Jun 2, 2005 8:07:22 GMT
You don't really want to know. Trust me.
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Post by Terrordar on Jun 2, 2005 8:16:39 GMT
I've been looking into the theory of Evolution and Intelligent Design lately.
And I can firmly say, that intelligent design is creationism, just wiht a bit broader view.
I think the main problem that people have with Evolution is the fact that it takes millions of years for the right mutation to occure in order to spure an entirely new species that leads to one group, inevitably, getting replaces.
Would you agree?
I mean, if things evolved around us constantly (barring Bacteria of course), people would of course be more inclined to believe. But this process takes millions of years.
You tend to agree Hec?
(Intelligent Design seems to be more of a cultural tool against secular individuals in the cultural war in the USA rather then science)
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Buffy
Chaosite
Posts: 786
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Post by Buffy on Jun 2, 2005 8:21:09 GMT
OK guys... feck the tracts.
I'll tell you what that bull is.
The truth of the matter is, you've only heard one side of the story. And in a typical, (God cant explain it) way, you laugh over typical bible bashing tracts like that. Typical AMERICAN tracts like that.
The truth is, science. In all its glorious way, STILL has NOT proved evolution worked.
The very theory of evolution clashed with one of the most important physic laws.
1) Everything is going from a state of organisation to chaos
besides all that, there is scientific proof that the schools dont teach you anymore (cause governemtns go agains god) that creation is the way to go.
I'll say this too. The theory of evolution requires more faith then creation.
There's proof, of fossilesed tree's, with no rings around their bark (indicating age) which suggests a tropical athmosphere apart form that that we have. Whcih suggests the icecaps did not exsist once. (Which is found true by finding coal, the product of decomposed trees in the antartica.)
They also know,the amount of ice that is melted, would be too much for the earth to handle.
Leading to the only possible understanding of were the water coming from being a canopy over the earth.
SO... these scientists, SECULAR scientists believe at one stage a worldwide flood was necessary to get to the stage we are at. Thereby, killing off the dinosaurs.
i hear you saying i didnt answer your previous question. How does a christian explain dinosaurs?
simple- in this tropical athmosphere, they simply lived longer.
it is a well known fact that reptiles continue to grow untill they die. Leaving it possible, to grow indefienatly. if the climate was rtight.
in the tropical athmosphere, the suns radiation did not penetrate, leaving us with a hugely warm, and lucious planet. Making everything live longer. (thereby bible characters living till 1000 years old) and dinosaurs too.
When Noah, took EVERYTHING onto the ark, he simply took two young lizards of all, when the water came, it ruined the tropical athmosphere, and the radiation hailed in earth, stopping the length of everythings life considerably
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Post by Terrordar on Jun 2, 2005 8:27:07 GMT
OK guys... feck the tracts. I'll tell you what that bull is. The truth of the matter is, you've only heard one side of the story. And in a typical, (God cant explain it) way, you laugh over typical bible bashing tracts like that. Typical AMERICAN tracts like that. The truth is, science. In all its glorious way, STILL has NOT proved evolution worked. The very theory of evolution clashed with one of the most important physic laws. 1) Everything is going from a state of organisation to chaos besides all that, there is scientific proof that the schools dont teach you anymore (cause governemtns go agains god) that creation is the way to go. I'll say this too. The theory of evolution requires more faith then creation. There's proof, of fossilesed tree's, with no rings around their bark (indicating age) which suggests a tropical athmosphere apart form that that we have. Whcih suggests the icecaps did not exsist once. (Which is found true by finding coal, the product of decomposed trees in the antartica.) They also know,the amount of ice that is melted, would be too much for the earth to handle. Leading to the only possible understanding of were the water coming from being a canopy over the earth. SO... these scientists, SECULAR scientists believe at one stage a worldwide flood was necessary to get to the stage we are at. Thereby, killing off the dinosaurs. i hear you saying i didnt answer your previous question. How does a christian explain dinosaurs? simple- in this tropical athmosphere, they simply lived longer. it is a well known fact that reptiles continue to grow untill they die. Leaving it possible, to grow indefienatly. if the climate was rtight. in the tropical athmosphere, the suns radiation did not penetrate, leaving us with a hugely warm, and lucious planet. Making everything live longer. (thereby bible characters living till 1000 years old) and dinosaurs too. When Noah, took EVERYTHING onto the ark, he simply took two young lizards of all, when the water came, it ruined the tropical athmosphere, and the radiation hailed in earth, stopping the length of everythings life considerably Wow, you mean to tell me humans and dinosaurs co-existed? Let me put it this way- I AM ENTIRELY UNCONVINCEDAnd further evidence points that particular dinosaurs are closer to birds, then lizards. Next, where are the human remains? We find remains of shrew like mammals from those eras, but no monkeys, no humans. And NO MAMMAL BEYOND THE SIZE OF A BADGER! And as for Evolution, let me make this one defense- We know things mutate, we know bacteria do so, we know one celled creatures do as well. They openly evolve, as do Viruses. But to mutate in a benefical way, they often have to do so, hundreds, if not THOUSANDS of times. Meaning, for the kinds of evolution where we see animals start to significantly change, it takes MILLIONS of years. Barring even more complexities with multi-cellular organisms. And on one more note- To evolve, just like when Bacteria and one celled organisms do, there often must be a constant, a need to change, involved. to make things more efficent, or easier.
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Buffy
Chaosite
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Post by Buffy on Jun 2, 2005 8:31:57 GMT
hehe... your not getting pissed cause im challenging your beliefs are you? ;D
come on, closer to birds? that THEORY is still a theory and not proved. Just as evolution is.
didnt want to get into evolution, but tell me this, give me an example of something that over time has gotten better? that has not died.
Or the big bang? better yet. Tell me about that. that from the very thing that we catorgise as choas, an explosion, can bring together thoasands of beautifull things of organisation.
Or tell me how you still believe in carbon dating, which cant determine the difference between a "million year old" rock, and a rock fresh from a volcano?
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Post by Terrordar on Jun 2, 2005 8:38:43 GMT
Firstly-
I do believe in carbon dating.
Second. I don't know what created the entire universe. I think that the odds are, that the Universe was, and always was, is better then the big bang or creationism, but I don't know that. I've never asked a question about what created the universe, or if nothing did, and it was always there. Time doesn't truly exist according to some theories.
Something that has gotten better at what it does? AIDS. Thats defiantely one thing I can think of. Most of the examples I can give, would be of lifeforms that are very very small, one celled infact.
Because of this-
I am not going to live another 100,000-1,000,000 years to see something evolve, or need to evolve (though its more likely now that the earth is starting to see climate change)
Dwarin, and others, have not lived said amount of time to see a multi-cellular life form do so either.
So, I can argue, that AIDS has gotten better at what it does, you know, the whole Super AIDS virus for instance. Or even the yearly flu, that evolves as well. and AVIAN Flu, the one that is likely to become a pandemic, that is evolving and adapting as well.
However, I am pretty damn sure, that the world is FAAAAAAAAR older then 6,000 years, or anything in the thousands. This rock we've been on, is probably older then anything I dare imagine, the same goes with the entire universe.
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Buffy
Chaosite
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Post by Buffy on Jun 2, 2005 8:43:25 GMT
VIRUSES?!? is your answer? A thing thats gonna wipe out life as we know it, is your answer to what gets better? ;D
OK, carbon dating my friend, is a joke. SERIOUSLY check out what it "supposes" to do. And ask them have they ever tried it on freshly made volcanic rock.
Take a pick. There is no other solid arguements. Creation or Big Bang. There is nothing else. You need to pick one. And somehow Creation seems a little more possible with the chances of our making coming into ridiculas statistcis
And Darwin my friend, the Jesus of evolution, when faced on his death bed, conceded in a faith in God. what does that say? He wants something more then to believe he's an accident.
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Post by Terrordar on Jun 2, 2005 8:48:49 GMT
OOOOH, now here is where it gets interesting-
You see, I have never disputed that god could have started life on earth. I think its entirely possible, that god planted the seeds of life on earth, and they have evolved into what they are today.
Next-
As far as creationism or Big Bang go, NEITHER work for me. One is based off a book written by people who where undereducated, and lacked understanding of very basic things, other then what prophets told them.
The Big Bang, seems equally unprovable. Both are just hersay.
And I said it gets better at what it DOES as far as Viruses go, I never said it gets better for US, we human beings. I never did say that.
Also, let the lava rock sit for a few hundred years, and then give it to someone, and they will probably be able to tell you how old it is, if there has been more showers in lava in the area, new ground has to be formed to be able to date such things.
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Buffy
Chaosite
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Post by Buffy on Jun 2, 2005 8:51:34 GMT
They'll tell you it dates to a couple of hundred years alright.... and add a million to it. hehe
alright, well if creationism isnt the way, how then does God fit in? if you believe he halped plant the seeds
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Post by Terrordar on Jun 2, 2005 8:55:13 GMT
Ah-
The thing is this. The idea that god just said "There, all beings that exist, do so now, to populate this world" does not work for me.
I think that if creationism is brought to the approach of- Said superior being placed the very basic life on this planet
That works much better for me, at least as far as my brain goes. ANd there are also a good number of people in the scientific community who also believe that god works through evoltution, and that it really isn't that much different then creationism.
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Buffy
Chaosite
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Post by Buffy on Jun 2, 2005 8:59:54 GMT
both ideas clash, they cant co-exsist. thats just people who are afraid to piss off either side.
because of people like yourself who are so forceful in describing what they believe as bull
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Post by Terrordar on Jun 2, 2005 9:05:57 GMT
Oh? Are we now adding in personal insults? How crude.
And to be honest, my uncle honestly believes the theory that god is involved in evolution, and he is Christian, and he is by no means afraid to piss off either side, he does so frequently.
So do, take your little opinion on human behavior, more specifically, claiming that people who believe that are basically cowards, and stick it.
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Post by hector on Jun 2, 2005 9:10:26 GMT
I think the main problem that people have with Evolution is the fact that it takes millions of years for the right mutation to occure in order to spure an entirely new species that leads to one group, inevitably, getting replaces. Would you agree? That's correct. It still has to be observed in a controlled enviroment, but that hardly disproves it. Intelligent Design is not science. It's the complete opossite of science. It's basically saying 'I can't explain this, I give up' The truth of the matter is, you've only heard one side of the story. And in a typical, (God cant explain it) way, you laugh over typical bible bashing tracts like that. Typical AMERICAN tracts like that. Those aren't Bible bashing tracts. They are deadly serious and reflects the true opinion of their writer/artist. come on, closer to birds? that THEORY is still a theory and not proved. Just as evolution is. The Theory of Evolution isn't 'Theory' as it is colloquially refered i.e. a guess. It's the strongest type of statement science can make and it's thouroughly backed by research and proofs. Something Creationism doesn't have. Nada. zilch. zero. It's not science, it's not a principled reasoning. It's a belief, and everyone is welcome to believe whatever they want but pitting Creationism against Evolution as if they were on some sort of equal footing is frankly mind-bogling.
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Post by Gray Lensman on Jun 2, 2005 9:12:45 GMT
Play nice, folks. I respect both sides of this issue. I'd like everyone else in this thread to do the same.
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Post by hector on Jun 2, 2005 9:20:52 GMT
alright, well if creationism isnt the way, how then does God fit in? if you believe he halped plant the seeds I believe it's preposterous for human being to even try to know how the Creator of the Universe measures a 'day'. I believe he didn't played dice with the Universe and used many tools to achieve what we are today. I believe he gave mankind the will to understand those tools and how they worked. I don't believe he faxed the Bible from Heaven. I don't believe science and faith can be mutually exclusive. I don't believe He gave us a moderate ability to reason and I don't think it should be wasted. That's pretty much what I believe. That's why I pray every night and yet I can still believe in Evolution.
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Post by Elliot Kane on Jun 2, 2005 9:29:05 GMT
First of all, there is very definite and obvious proof of evolution. it is called 'selective breeding programs', and humans have been doing it with cattle and other domestc animals for centuries. What is that if not controlled evolution?
Second of all, there is no actual clash between saying 'God created the world' and 'I believe in evolution'. Assuming for one moment we are dealing with a Christian viewpoint, nowehere in the bible does it say that evolution is a false theory, nor, IIRC, does it say that everything was created to be eternally the way it was. This was a later interpretation created by the church, who tend to react very poorly to anything they feel might threaten their power base.
Let us not forget that it was not TOO long ago that believing the Earth revolved around the Sun was considered heretical and anti-Biblical by the church.
Buffy is right on Carbon Dating - but forgets Geological Dating, which is a whole lot more reliable (Though not 100%, of course. No system is).
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Post by Terrordar on Jun 2, 2005 9:32:01 GMT
Nice way to cut into the scene Elliot, :-D I knew I was missing something on the dating... I entirely forgot about geological dating
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