Ok, here is the question that eats away at my mind

[Venom65437]

Damn, where was I at 6am? LoL.

[sps1000]

Here's another viewpoint ( taking a page from David Hume here):

Do we have concrete evidence (or evidence you can touch, feel, look at, taste or smell) of creationalism? No you say? Then we shouldn't believe it.

Do we have concrete evidence of evolution? Not necessarily. Dinosaurs having similar bone structures to birds is like saying we have a similar bone structure to a rat, or a monkey. Yes we can say that shows evolution but we have not seen the actual process of evolution so I think we can throw that out also.

So that leaves us with nothing! But we can speculate. If god comes to earth and says "I created everything!" we have proof. Just as if we gain immortality and watch and observe a squid over millions of years until it walks on land (Just using squid as an example) evolution is true.

This is just a different viewpoint. I'm not claiming it as my own or anything.

[Dark Phoenix Rising]

Just a couple of things

• In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

  This is the very first verse and paragraph of the bible, at no point in this verse/paragraph does it give a time scale.
  
• until the 6th day man did not even exist, he hadn't eaten of the tree of knowledge, and eve certianly did not exist. So how were the first 5 days written about?
  
• I think it makes more sense that the creation story is a simplified version of what happened in the beginning as I'm fairly sure that even with the information we have now we wouldn't understand the process even if we were given a map. To this end I submit that both theories are correct, the story of creation tells you what happened while the theory of evolution, the big bang, etc. go some way to explain how. After all if you are going to build a hundred thousand cars, are you going to do each one by hand or work out a way to do it automatically?
  
  Who's to say that whatever created the universe didn't spend *plucks a figure out of thin air* 3 million years as we would measure it designing and building this black box that when he pushed the button would create everything he wanted with a minimum of further input? When things start to go a little awry they then step in and correct things slightly until they get to the point that everything is sorted out.
  

The way I see it is that if you take the most sensible solution you are probably right, and until we can prove one solution either way, any theory that comes along is valid.

P.S. For an example of evolution in action, look at the plants around you. Alternitivally look up studies on chaffinches as, as I recall, there is a new breed of chaffinch that has evolved on an island after getting stranded there about 50 - 100 years ago.

[BJC]

tsel said:

The thing you have to understand is the books that are in the bible existed individually before the whole as we know it now.
There were hundreds of other books that were considered to be put into the bible, but were purposefully left out; because, the church decreed them not to be in the whole.
One of many, situations is that a handful of chapters that were part of the book of Daniel were left out; because, the church so decreed.
We also have the Apocrypha.
Many of the books in the "Lost Books of Eden" were supposed to be included in the original biblical cannon, but were left out because they were not received quickly enough.
Historical evidence will tell you that.

I have mentioned twice now that if one would simply read the "Zohar" things would make a lot more sense.
Sadly, most consider topics like this boring and would rather read something else.

Tsel

Yeah, but again. God clearly shows that Genesis was the beginning. Look Genesis up in the dictionary. There couldnt have been anything before that because, that was the beginning. Anything before that was only what God knows about....which the bible did not talk about, and you wont find in any bible book, because Genesis says that that was the start of Earth and life.

[BJC]

dragonlord said:

Just a couple of things

• In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

  This is the very first verse and paragraph of the bible, at no point in this verse/paragraph does it give a time scale.
  
• until the 6th day man did not even exist, he hadn't eaten of the tree of knowledge, and eve certianly did not exist. So how were the first 5 days written about?
  
• I think it makes more sense that the creation story is a simplified version of what happened in the beginning as I'm fairly sure that even with the information we have now we wouldn't understand the process even if we were given a map. To this end I submit that both theories are correct, the story of creation tells you what happened while the theory of evolution, the big bang, etc. go some way to explain how. After all if you are going to build a hundred thousand cars, are you going to do each one by hand or work out a way to do it automatically?
  
  Who's to say that whatever created the universe didn't spend *plucks a figure out of thin air* 3 million years as we would measure it designing and building this black box that when he pushed the button would create everything he wanted with a minimum of further input? When things start to go a little awry they then step in and correct things slightly until they get to the point that everything is sorted out.
  

The way I see it is that if you take the most sensible solution you are probably right, and until we can prove one solution either way, any theory that comes along is valid.

P.S. For an example of evolution in action, look at the plants around you. Alternitivally look up studies on chaffinches as, as I recall, there is a new breed of chaffinch that has evolved on an island after getting stranded there about 50 - 100 years ago.

Dragonlord, what is the defenition of 'evolve', and can you give me an example?

Thanks

[Shan]

I am not into this sort of thing and I don't make a stand one way or the
other. I believe everybody has the right to look at it in their own way unless
there is positive proof that their way is wrong. In this case no matter how
hard one might try it can not be proven either way.

The Bible tells us that God created the earth and all that is a part of it. I
accept this by faith because I believe in God. What the Bible does not tell
us is how he created it. No one actually knows how long a day was to God
as he created the earth. Sure we can say it was the same as our days, but can
we prove it. I don't think we can.

Was the earth created with everything fresh, young and with no age to it.
Maybe, maybe not. What would have kept God from making the earth
to denote age to any degree. He could have done it if he had wanted to. He
could have made a rock to appear to be a million years old or a day old.
He could have made a tree just a seed to grow into a tree or he could have
made it appear hundreds of years old. Only God knows how old he made
the earth to appear.

As for the fossils and all that we find now days and other things too, who
says that God didn't put them there for man to have something to find
and puzzle over one day. He knew that man would be curious and that
man would explore, so why couldn't he have made them for that purpose.

It doesn't answer Terrordar's questions and neither does it answer alot of
other peoples questions. It is just the way I happen to look at it. I have
always seen it as a question that will never be answered by man. Only
God knows the answer IMHO.

Now talk, argue or whatever as long as you want, but I bet in the end
you still won't have a postitive answer. ;D

Shan

[hector]

What Shan here just exposed is known as the Omphalos hypothesis; and while it is certainly unverifiable, it poses an interesting question.

If God created the world that way, who says He didn't do it 10, 5 minutos ago?

Think about that for a while.

[philster]

Do we need to?

The thing's to ponder our own purpose in life, what WE were made on Earth for, not worry about irrelevant details like how the universe and humankind were created and God's full capabilities which we'll probably never know for sure anyway, and has no real bearing on how we should approach our own lives.

I know, I know, you people just like to argue and try to figure these things out. Good luck.

[Dark Phoenix Rising]

Evolution is the natural adaption of a creature to it's environment and a physical change that accompanies this.

I cannot currently provide the sort of examples that you would except as the process of creating a variation in a species (such as dog breeding, or cattle breeding) would be considered artificical and there for not true evolution.

I can however give you an microscopic example (which has already been banded about further up) which is bacteria. The reason that this example tends to come up is that the reproduction cycle of bacteria is short enough that we can observe the evolution of the speices. The E-Coli bacteria has already been observed to evolve to resist the attacks we put against it, MRSA is also doing the same. Beyond the single celled organisms the life cycle of the organism is such that we can only see small changes in the species.

[Elliot Kane]

If evolution were not a fact, at least on the micro scale, dog breeding to create new strains/breeds would not be possible. It may be artificial, but the principle is the same. It's not like direct genetic manipulation, after all

[Elliot Kane]

Hec - there is no way of even proving to ourselves that we exist, let alone that anything else does. The first step in any analysis is thus always a leap of faith - "I believe that I exist."

Nietsche disproved "I think therefore I am," pointing out that first 'I' have to prove it is 'me' who is thinking - which is impossible.

Just to add to your thinking, there

And the overall point of this - that what we perceive to be real we might as well accept as real. Keeps things easier

(Nature of reality is definitely next. Forget sentience, for now...)

[BJC]

Ok, so evolution is taking a dog........

And making it a dog.
Changing certain charcteristics only make it 'micro' (Elliot named) evolution. Its not changing from a dog to a watermelon......micro evolution is WAY off from macro evolution (which is the way evolutionists believe). Micro evolution you can see everyday, the bible even mentions it.

As for creation of Earth, true. The bible doesnt say how long a day is, but Im sure if theres groundbreaking news from the Garden, we'd be told in Genesis, other then what we already know.

[Shan]

Do we need to?

The thing's to ponder our own purpose in life, what WE were made on Earth for, not worry about irrelevant details like how the universe and humankind were created and God's full capabilities which we'll probably never know for sure anyway, and has no real bearing on how we should approach our own lives.

I know, I know, you people just like to argue and try to figure these things out. Good luck.

I like your answer Phil.

That is exactly how I feel about it.

They will never figure it out Phil. ;D

And guys, I join Phil in wishing you all Good Luck. I think you need it.

Shan

[Elliot Kane]

BJC...

This is my position, also. Micro evolution is not only provable, but is easily and obviously provable. Macro evolution is still an unproven theory with zero evidence produced thus far to support it.

[janggut]

*thinking about dating girls*

we may be prodding still in the dark & even then we'll still be wrong about the whole thing.

anyway this is an intersting topic, which most have already said what i wanted to say.

evolution is a reality, which is much too obvious to be ignored. & at the same time, the biblical account is something not to be brushed off as well. in fact, if we are to study the book of Genesis in its original text, the depth of our understanding may be deepened. the word 'day' does not means literally day. it means a period of time. & bible, as we know it, can be very metaphoric in description, which means it is not to be taken literally & casually. this is why christians are taught to read the bible with faith to 'see' the truth in the words.

just my 2 cents.

[BJC]

Well obiously....

Evolutionists believe we came from a drop of who knows what from the sea. Forming into this that and the other thing. And to most known 'apes to humans'. Wow, we're coming from apes, and the process suddenly stops once the process is subject to being questioned. Idn't that something. "Millions and millions of years will take you from a human to bark on a tree." I'll tell you, if thats the deal.....they can stuff thier macro, in my opinion. ;D

[Terrordar]

bjc said:

Well obiously....

Evolutionists believe we came from a drop of who knows what from the sea. Forming into this that and the other thing. And to most known 'apes to humans'. Wow, we're coming from apes, and the process suddenly stops once the process is subject to being questioned. Idn't that something. "Millions and millions of years will take you from a human to bark on a tree." I'll tell you, if thats the deal.....they can stuff thier macro, in my opinion. ;D

What are you talking about?

Humans won't evolve into Bark... We'll evolve into another form of homo-(insert title)

[Shan]

You mean you wouldn't like to be bark on a tree Terrordar. BJ and I might
be able to speed up the evolution process just for you so you could give it a
try. ;D

Tell you the truth I don't think we will evolve into anything. I think we will
basically stay just as we are until the end of time. Won't to know something
else? I don't believe that we have evolved from anything either.

God said that he created man in his own image. And I don't believe God
was an ape or what ever. I think if we could see him he would look alot like
we do. Jesus did and he is God's son, so why should we think that we evolved from some other form.

People are free to believe what they will though, so if you want to have
evolved from something then it is OK by me. ;D
As for me, I would rather believe differently and believe that I come from
God and that I was made in his image.

Shan

[Terrordar]

Shan, allow me to add some perspective to you

Long before Jesus Christ, a man named ALexander the Great was often hailed as god, and his mother was claimed to have been a virgin upon his conception.

Such things in the past era were said to say that the mother was more pure then mere mortal's mothers.

Next, the bible was written by human beings, it is very likely, I honestly hate to say this, but when we die, and die we all shall, it is very likely, that that is it.

I know you believe otherwise, and you have faith, but here are the hard cold fact. THere is as much evidence of an afterlife, as there is of creationism, and near death experiences that claim there are an afterlife are rare, they vary, and they are entirely unreliable.

Even for Evolution, there is not as much evidence as I would like, but at least there IS evidence. So in general, I am more prone to say, I will side with the people who have some minor evidence, other then people with unwavering faith in a book, which they don't even know is true, other then unblinding faith.

[Shan]

Terrordar, you could hold a valid point, but the real point comes down to what an individual wishes to believe without positive evidence.

You may desire to not believe in God and a life after death. You may desire to believe in evolution (that we have all evolved from some lower being) and that is your choice.

As for me, I would rather have faith and believe that there is a God and that there is life after death. I would rather believe in the Bible (even though it was written by men, I believe it was inspired by God) and have faith that what I read is true.

And as for evolution, it comes down to the degree of evolution that you
believe in. I will never believe in the type of evolution that says we came from apes or that the world just happened. Why? because I believe in God.

You are free to believe what you think is right. I just know I don't agree if what you are stating is really what you believe.

Shan