Progressive Islam

[The Sonar Chicken]

Terror, I didn't say if it would or wouldn't work. I was trying to point out that trying to crush another group, wouldn't accomplish much apart from resentment and more problems, and fulfilling the "short term goals" the oppressors have. If you look at it, a lot of the problems in this world are 'cos the previous generations(either 10, 20, 500 years or even longer) started throwing forth random ideas to implement, without considering the consequences in the distant future.

[Terrordar]

And this is not going to change.

[kitty]

Apr 10, 2009 17:41:57 GMT Terrordar said:

Apr 10, 2009 13:27:52 GMT kitty said:

I think it's a good atempt. When the first progressive jewish split groups started they had giant trouble as well and still, it worked for some - why shouldn't it for islam.

Terre - don't think a Nazi comment to that sentence made much sense.

Kitty:

The comment claimed that crushing a minority group under a larger group within a social community, would not work. The Communists in Germany were crushed by the Nazis violently after they got their "51%" if you will and Hitler took power.

Fear and intimidation work a lot better than people think.

I got that very well, being german and all... but it was still not very well paced since nazis (nd communist) dont exist anymore and so obviously can be erased if obvious that their syste doesnt work in the long run.

[Glance A'Lot]

I believe it to be exagerated to say that Nazis and Communists don't exist any more - though, in Germany at least, currently not as a political force of significance. But there is a crystallization core that needs watching as extreme situations tend to let them grow.

While Communists are often seen as idealistic but irrealistic, the extreme right wing factions grow - more so in other European countries (though they certainly deny being related to 'Nazis', they are nonetheless uncomfortably close to certain of their 'visions' of society).

[The Sonar Chicken]

I've heard that Nazism is still somewhat around in Germany, though quite a bit of the membership comes from bored/angry youths who are frustrated at life, society, etc. I just don't know how much of a threat it actually exists.

Glance: Sharing "visions" of society, what do you mean?

[Elliot Kane]

Nazism is a bigger danger in France and Austria, honestly. Too much of the Nazi past of those countries was never admitted to or come to terms with, so they don't have most Germans' natural repugnance to the idea.

That said, the far Right is on the rise across much of Europe, in part due to the excesses of the Left, who far too often seem to demonise and alienate their own people. When reasonable discussion of immigration (IE is there too much of it? Should immigrants integrate with the native popn? Is 'Multiculturalism' really a good idea?) is shut down with mad screams of "RACIST!!!" and legitimate concerns over employment are ignored, many working people are prepared to close their eyes to the worst parts of the doctrine of the far Right because it's ONLY the far Right that seems to listen to their concerns without condemning them.

When the govt abandon the people, the people will always look to the extremes to find leaders - be it Right or Left.

There's a lesson in that, but most (At least) European govts are far too stupid and full of their own importance to ever recall that their power comes not from themselves, but from the people. And if they alienate enough of the people...

[ss]

Apr 11, 2009 8:21:40 GMT The Sonar Chicken said:

I've heard that Nazism is still somewhat around in Germany, though quite a bit of the membership comes from bored/angry youths who are frustrated at life, society, etc. I just don't know how much of a threat it actually exists.

Glance: Sharing "visions" of society, what do you mean?

Although Glance will answer for himself, I would think it would be that they are getting laws of some sort passed that reflect their philosophy of society and how it should be ran...

The "Left" here in ther US is doing the same thing...

[kitty]

Ok you guys are all a bit picky.. of course I didn't mean the ideology of nazism & the like is dead but the Nazi and Communists everyone has in mind when saying the words does not exist anymore. There is no Nazigermany anymore, no 'Heil Shitler' is the normal greeting, no jewish slums in the middle of big cities, no concentration camps, no arian ideology taught in school.

There is also no Wall anymore, no imprisioned country, no constant spying that is normal news, no "that TV channel is from the west don't watch it or you get in trouble" anymore.

That was what I was referring to.

Germany is, as far as I know, the only country that has laws forbidding nazistic symbolism. Hitlerokes are a nono in german comedy - I would simply say, Eli is right, the bigger threat comes from other european countries nowadays.

Neonazis have a different face today. You can't recognize them on bold heads and stupid shoes anymore. They dress "left", use slogans scarily similar to the left youth, promote their idology subtle and over music and they do not openly bash the jews anymore. (What would be tricky anyway, not too much left...)

I think we have to differ between the Nazi-idea from 1944 and the one from today.

[Ubereil]

Showing the Swastica in public is/can be punishable in Sweden by the way.

Übereil

[kitty]

^ Ok cool, hadn't know this and am happy other countries punish it.

As a sidenote, I have a thing for cementary design (yeah don't ask) and apperently, when a grave is properly shown as part of some indian tribe et, the swatika is allowed to be displayed (but it is encouraged to not to so...) - who would have thought.

[The Sonar Chicken]

Hmmm... "swastika"? Oh, you mean some Indian tribes do use that symbol, huh? But is that the Nazi version or another one?

I understand reluctance to look at display of any such images but if it's the non-Nazi version, why no education on that, eh? If people can accept the fact that Hitler threw together a "religion" consisting of random mythology, imageries, etc. why not the fact that he "borrowed" symbols from other religions? Or are people still too afraid that "oh no... if someone uses <said symbols from said religion>, we'll give rise to the spawn of Satan"? Please tell me that I'm wrong?

[Elliot Kane]

The Swastika is/was originally an Indian good luck symbol (That's the country of, not Native Americans, BTW) and can actually be found in a fair amount of their art and designs because of that. It's used primarily by one small religious group I forget the name of, IIRC.

So in actual fact, any blanket ban on the Swastika is based on ignorance and/or prejudice. In Germany, there is a clear reason for this, of course. In other countries, not so much (Sorry, Sweden, but it's true!).

Western people usually ignore the origins of the symbol for the simple reason that they don't know about it and are never taught it. Hitler's use of it has simply overshadowed all others, in the West

Semi-amusing anecdote: I remember walking into a small Indian art & craft shop a good few years ago (In England, not in India) and seeing a carpet laced with Swastikas, which infuriated me until I recalled the origins of the symbol, which fortunately took only a few seconds. I almost allowed my own stupid prejudices to overwhelm both knowledge and good sense. A narrow escape

[Ubereil]

Elliot, it's acually not a blanket ban. The key was you can be charged in Sweden. You can be charged with vexatious behavior or with agitation against an ethnic group. But I doubt you'll get charged with any of these if you're an indian and wearing one of these. The point of this law is to prevent swasticas to show up in public demonstrations and the likes.

At least that's what I think... If this isn't it then I agree with you.

Übereil

[Elliot Kane]

Well, Ube, you're the man in the best position to find out...

[ss]

Here is part of an article on the swastika...

You may like it or not...or agree with it or not...but I find it interesting....if anyone wants the whole article, I will PM it to them..the thrust of the article is religious in nature..wouldn't want to "offend" anyone...

This sign - the swastika, or hooked cross - is universally referred to as "the earliest known symbol." A note in the Encyclopedia Americana is of great interest:
"[The swastika] is a symbol of the sun in the nature-religions of the Aryan races from Scandinavia to Persia and India; and similar devices occur in monumental remains of the Mexicans and Peruvians, and on objects exhumed from prehistoric burial grounds within the limits of the United States. The swastika consists of a Greek cross, either enclosed in a circle, the circumference of which passes through its extremities; or with its arms bent back thus to form the swastika. It is found invariably associated with the worship of the Aryan sun-gods (Apollo, Odin) and is believed to represent the sun. The swastika was adopted as the German national symbol by the Nazis."
The Dark Side
Though couched in the dispassionate language of the encyclopedia, the final phrase brings a chill to those who remember the Germany of World War II and its fanatic dedication to the extermination of the Jews. The bent cross on the Nazi flag stood for Aryan purity. The Nazis wanted the Germans to become the race to inherit the world. Needless to say, that role has already been promised to Israel.
The swastika was chosen by the Germans precisely because of its historic connections with the so-called "pure" race that had once dominated the Old World. The crooked cross was (and is) the highest symbol of the rebellious man who believes that he can use his own resources to create a utopia. For Hitler, it was to be the thousand-year "Third Reich."
Many documentaries have attempted to explain the madness of the Nazi era. Most of them adopt social, economic or political interpretive schemes. And it is true that the devastated German economy of the thirties created a climate favorable to the rise of an opportunistic despot like Hitler. His shameless appeal to socialist politics lured a gullible people into self-destruction.
But a better rationale for Hitler's mad rush to power can be found in the often-ignored battleground of the spirit world. In their best-selling book, Morning of the Magicians, Louis Pauwels and Jacques Bergier document the Nazi connection with the world of the occult.
According to their lengthy study, Hitler believed in an alternative "science," which he believed would dominate his new kingdom. He said, "There is a Nordic and National-Socialist Science which is opposed to Judaeo-Liberal Science." In short, he believed that the Judeo-Christian world view was about to be snuffed out, to be replaced by a new system of belief.
Many are surprised to learn that the inner circles of Nazism were governed by the leaders of a theosophical society, alternately called the "Thule Society" and the "Society of the Golden Dawn." These leaders, such as Guenon and Gurdjieff, were the early founders of what has since come to be called "The New Age Movement." Supposedly, the Thule Society dates all the way back to the pre-Flood cultures of the Cainite civilization.
There were many Tibetan monks in Hitler's retinue. One, called "the man with the green gloves," was reputed to have correctly foretold in the German press, the number of Hitlerian deputies to be elected to the Reichstag. He was regularly visited by Hitler, and said by his deputies "to possess the keys to the Kingdom of Agarthi." This is simply another name for the ancient spiritual kingdom of Thule.
According to historians Pauwels and Bergier, Hitler's closest aide, General Karl Haushofer, spent days, weeks and months on end indoctrinating Hitler with his occultic theories. They write, "Karl Haush-ofer was born in 1869. He paid several visits to India and the Far East, and was sent to Japan, where he learned the language. He believed that the German people originated in Central Asia, and that it was the Indo-Germanic race which guaranteed the permanence, nobility and greatness of the world." This "Indo-Germanic race" was the fictitious Aryan race that Hitler promoted.
Haushofer was initiated into one of the most important secret Buddhist societies. Failure of his mission called for suicide. It is a historical fact that on March 14, 1946, Haushofer killed his wife Martha and then executed himself in Japanese fashion.
Concerning the swastika, Pauwels and Bergier note, "In Europe, as in Asia, the swastika has always been considered a magic sign. It has been taken as a symbol of the sun, a source of life and fecundity, or of thunder and a manifestation of Divine wrath, which has to be appeased. In contrast to the cross, the triangle, the circle, or the crescent, the swastika is not a primitive sign which could have been invented and re-invented at any time in the history of humanity, or at any place on the globe, with a different symbolic meaning every time. It is, in fact, the first sign traced with a definite intention.
"The earliest known specimen of the swastika is supposed to have been found in Japan at the time of the introduction of Buddhism, which adopted it as an emblem. Of capital importance is the fact that it is entirely unknown, or only occurs accidentally, in all Semitic regions such as Egypt, Chaldea, Assyria and Phoenicia. It is an exclusively Aryan symbol."
They also quote the 1931 book, Le Symbolisme de la Croix [The Symbolism of the Cross] written by occultist Rene Guenon: "We read recently, in an article in the Journal des Debats of January 22, 1929, the following news item which shows that the old traditions are not as dead as people think: 'In 1925 the Cuna Indians rose in revolt, slaughtered the gendarmes from Panama who lived on their territory, and founded the independent Republic of Thule, whose flag is a swastika on an orange background with a red border. This republic exists to this day.' Of special interest is the association of the swastika with the name of Thule, which is one of the oldest designations of that supreme spiritual center, which has since been applied to some of its lesser branches." Obviously, it seems more than a coincidence that the Nazi swastika was set against an orange background.
There is a curious historical addition to the Nazi epic. Pauwels and Bergier repeat a widely known incident that came at the end of World War II: "It was in 1926 that a small Hindu and Tibetan colony settled in Berlin and Munich. When the Russians entered Berlin, they found among the corpses a thousand 'volunteers for death,' in German uniforms without any papers or badges, of Himalayan origin. As soon as the [Nazi] movement began to acquire extensive funds, it organized a number of expeditions to Tibet which succeeded one another practically without interruption until 1943."
Their documentation of the Nazi/occult connection continues for about 300 pages. Suffice it to say that they demonstrate, without a shadow of doubt, that the bent cross of the Nazi flag was universally regarded by insiders as an occult symbol of the ancient powers that were destroyed several thousand years ago in a worldwide cataclysm.

[Elliot Kane]

Fascinating stuff, ss. I knew some of that, but by no means all...

Some of it is clearly in error - like the Swastika being 'exclusively' an Aryan symbol when the article itself proves this is not the case - but even so...

[Ubereil]

Apr 12, 2009 13:46:42 GMT Elliot Kane said:

Well, Ube, you're the man in the best position to find out...

Well, I don't exactly like to wear Swastika T-shirts so I'm not that motivated to find out just how stern the law is... ;D

Übereil

[The Sonar Chicken]

Swastika an Aryan-only symbol? Really? Hmmm... there're schools run by Buddhists here which have Swastikas plastered all over the building + school banners. How's that for culture shock, for people who're ignorant about that?

Oh wait, the article already said it wasn't. Btw, wait... what proof is there, that some "Buddhism secret society" is connected to Nazism? O-o;; After all, from what I recall, a lot of the Nazis' claims were like "complete hogwash": things they made up just for the sake of having a more concrete history, better-sounding explanations, etc.

Interesting article though.

[ss]

"The earliest known specimen of the swastika is supposed to have been found in Japan at the time of the introduction of Buddhism, which adopted it as an emblem. Of capital importance is the fact that it is entirely unknown, or only occurs accidentally, in all Semitic regions such as Egypt, Chaldea, Assyria and Phoenicia. It is an exclusively Aryan symbol."

Maybe context...this is the full quote from the book that Pauwels and Bergier wrote..

I am not defending the quote, think it was meant in light of it's major USE in history....maybe not..??

Will have to check back as to why Buddhism adopted it and to what degree it was ever used by them....more research... ;D

[Elliot Kane]

I think they just have a very bizarre view of what constitutes 'Aryan' honestly. They appear to be going with 'Anything not Jewish or Arabic' which, well, includes a LOT of people!