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Post by Hildor on Jul 31, 2009 11:17:16 GMT
^ That is all nice IN THEORY Hildor but in societies where homosexuality is still and will be a long time a "crime" or (hello ss) a "sin" it is [Censored]ing brave to be openly gay. We also honor people who run in front of giant tanks to stop them or chain themself to trees even though it should be common knowledge that war is never going to bring a good result and that the enviroment is precious. It's the same kind of bravary. Sure, in most countries gays don't face death... they just get told that they'll burn in hell, mess with kids brains and are generally drity, potentially HIV-infested perverts. Loverly. Good point there. Guess I was only thinking within the borders of my own country (where in fact, it's not that perfectly accepted yet either).
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Post by kitty on Jul 31, 2009 23:37:07 GMT
^ Yea I had to figure out how to frame my point before I made the thread either. It is easy to overlook what we already all do when something new comes around.
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Post by ss on Aug 1, 2009 13:02:22 GMT
^ That is all nice IN THEORY Hildor but in societies where homosexuality is still and will be a long time a "crime" or (hello ss) a "sin" it is [Censored]ing brave to be openly gay. We also honor people who run in front of giant tanks to stop them or chain themself to trees even though it should be common knowledge that war is never going to bring a good result and that the enviroment is precious. It's the same kind of bravary. Sure, in most countries gays don't face death... they just get told that they'll burn in hell, mess with kids brains and are generally drity, potentially HIV-infested perverts. Loverly. Kit, My post was addressing DPR's theory of acceptance. But...now that you bring it up.. ;D... Emotions, pro or con, will not change the truth (yea, I know, Pontius Pilate...what is truth?). But if you ever read any of my posts, I don't change....Sin is Sin...whether or not it is Adultery, Murder, Homosexuality, Lying, Cheating....etc....it is still sin.. AND...being a homosexual will NOT send you to hell...dieing without Christ will send you to hell... THAT and nothing else, from the Christian belief, is why one goes to hell.. The most moral person in the universe will go to hell if they do not know Christ as Saviour.... So, any post I make on the subject has to be prefaced on that base belief, not whether or not I find homosexuality morally "repugnant" or morally "heroic". I could tell you my philosophy on homosexuality but that wasn't what I was addressing... ;D
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Post by kilgoretrout on Aug 1, 2009 16:58:37 GMT
Whats "intersexual" ?
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Post by The Sonar Chicken on Aug 1, 2009 18:12:26 GMT
Hmmm... I only know this much even though I've read quite a few articles about intersexuality. Most humans have a combo of XY/XX(male/female) chromosomes. Intersexuals: well, their chromosomes often deviate from the standard version or it could be genitals(like: the person has XY chromosomes, looks male but has female genitals or has both genitals which're partially or fully developed) or something else. But whatever the effects or the conditions, the person's mind is usually rather conflicted in terms of gender identity, especially in a society where gender roles are strictly obeyed to: am I male? am I female? or what am I? Usually, it's both male and female. There're drugs available for regulating hormones and which can be taken but they usually come at a price: loss of bone density, heart issues, possible degrade of vision, etc., etc. Nevertheless, they have to be taken should the state of unbalanced chromosomes and other conditions, send the body out of whack. And note: forcefully giving drugs and performing gender assignment surgery on intersexed babies rarely fixes but instead increases the problems that'll often come later when said person finally figures out his/her identity.
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Post by kitty on Aug 2, 2009 2:22:46 GMT
^ That is all nice IN THEORY Hildor but in societies where homosexuality is still and will be a long time a "crime" or (hello ss) a "sin" it is [Censored]ing brave to be openly gay. We also honor people who run in front of giant tanks to stop them or chain themself to trees even though it should be common knowledge that war is never going to bring a good result and that the enviroment is precious. It's the same kind of bravary. Sure, in most countries gays don't face death... they just get told that they'll burn in hell, mess with kids brains and are generally drity, potentially HIV-infested perverts. Loverly. Kit, My post was addressing DPR's theory of acceptance. But...now that you bring it up.. ;D... Emotions, pro or con, will not change the truth (yea, I know, Pontius Pilate...what is truth?). But if you ever read any of my posts, I don't change....Sin is Sin...whether or not it is Adultery, Murder, Homosexuality, Lying, Cheating....etc....it is still sin.. AND...being a homosexual will NOT send you to hell...dieing without Christ will send you to hell... THAT and nothing else, from the Christian belief, is why one goes to hell.. The most moral person in the universe will go to hell if they do not know Christ as Saviour.... So, any post I make on the subject has to be prefaced on that base belief, not whether or not I find homosexuality morally "repugnant" or morally "heroic". I could tell you my philosophy on homosexuality but that wasn't what I was addressing... ;D Dear ss, the problem I have is, if I would see your posts in the light of "belief", I would need to ignore them alltogether since I only care for science and reason and still think religion is dangerous and smallminded. But since I don't think you are stupid ss, I try to at least give my critic to your posts so I don't have to file you under "crazy, blind christian fanatic" cause I kinda don't want to do that. So bear with me fellow...
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Post by ss on Aug 2, 2009 16:07:51 GMT
Kit, My post was addressing DPR's theory of acceptance. But...now that you bring it up.. ;D... Emotions, pro or con, will not change the truth (yea, I know, Pontius Pilate...what is truth?). But if you ever read any of my posts, I don't change....Sin is Sin...whether or not it is Adultery, Murder, Homosexuality, Lying, Cheating....etc....it is still sin.. AND...being a homosexual will NOT send you to hell...dieing without Christ will send you to hell... THAT and nothing else, from the Christian belief, is why one goes to hell.. The most moral person in the universe will go to hell if they do not know Christ as Saviour.... So, any post I make on the subject has to be prefaced on that base belief, not whether or not I find homosexuality morally "repugnant" or morally "heroic". I could tell you my philosophy on homosexuality but that wasn't what I was addressing... ;D Dear ss, the problem I have is, if I would see your posts in the light of "belief", I would need to ignore them alltogether since I only care for science and reason and still think religion is dangerous and smallminded. But since I don't think you are stupid ss, I try to at least give my critic to your posts so I don't have to file you under "crazy, blind christian fanatic" cause I kinda don't want to do that. So bear with me fellow... OK Kit...I'll bear with ya...but I don't really care what you call me....just don't call me late for dinner... ;D
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Post by Terrordar on Aug 2, 2009 19:04:37 GMT
SS's position is generally unfounded, but to claim religious people are dangerous, small minded or anything else, is inherently prejudice, far more prejudice than many positions I hold. I've learned largely, to overcome my prejudices with Religious minded people.
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Post by fughawzi on Aug 2, 2009 21:05:16 GMT
SS's position is generally unfounded, but to claim religious people are dangerous, small minded or anything else, is inherently prejudice, far more prejudice than many positions I hold. It is about the same as any of your racist/bigot type things. No cookie points. The most moral person in the universe will go to hell if they do not know Christ as Saviour.... I find this to be one of the most ridiculous things about Christianity. Some of the worst people I've met in my life so far have accepted Christ as their saviour, but some of the people who actually care about the world around them and do things to better it won't ever, yet the people who don't care about anything will get into heaven. I've met some very good Christians, mind you, so I'm not saying they're all horrible.. but argh. I can't take something seriously if that is the situation. To address Elliot and Hildor, it is a huge privilege that you guys can even say the things you are saying in response to this thread. Elliot, you are one of the few people in the world who can even remotely say that the war is almost won in your country. It does not depend on where you are in America, people are treated horrifically whether they're in the Bible Belt or Los Angeles. I mean hell, I live in California and we managed to vote in the ban on gay marriage last year while everyone views us as the "Fruits and Nuts state." In a country that largely votes depending on one issue topics, it is very rare for an openly gay politician to be elected into office. You see, gays have an agenda and will infect our country's children with the gay. It is ridiculous. Again, the thing that bothered me most about this thread was the fact that most of you seemed to forget that a world exists outside your country's borders. Why is that? It isn't hard to find out what other countries' policies and general mindsets are toward a great many topics in this day and age, you just have to put a little effort in.
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Post by Elliot Kane on Aug 2, 2009 21:56:04 GMT
I did say ALMOST, Zee But Britain at least is on the right track, even though we aren't there, yet. Give it a couple more generations and I think Britain will fully accept homosexuals as the ordinary people they are. I think what really turns the tide in any country is when it becomes blatantly obvious that homosexuals are not horrible monsters out to corrupt and destroy ordinary people (As far too much of the press has tried to portray them in the past) but just people like anyone else. Once that threshold is passed, hatred dies because it has nothing to hold onto. Homophobia is based on two things: fear of 'The Other' and insecurity about one's own sexuality (Mainly true with teenage boys). Once it's obvious that gays are no more 'Other' than anyone else (And let's face it, which consenting non-related adult any other adult chooses to sleep with should really be a non-issue), then what's left? Britain is not a very religious nation for the most part, so only a minority of us have religious objections and even there the Church itself is divided on the issue... So we're doing well, with the promise of better
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Post by ss on Aug 3, 2009 0:18:06 GMT
SS's position is generally unfounded, but to claim religious people are dangerous, small minded or anything else, is inherently prejudice, far more prejudice than many positions I hold. It is about the same as any of your racist/bigot type things. No cookie points. The most moral person in the universe will go to hell if they do not know Christ as Saviour.... I find this to be one of the most ridiculous things about Christianity. Some of the worst people I've met in my life so far have accepted Christ as their saviour, but some of the people who actually care about the world around them and do things to better it won't ever, yet the people who don't care about anything will get into heaven. I've met some very good Christians, mind you, so I'm not saying they're all horrible.. but argh. I can't take something seriously if that is the situation. Whether or not you have met "bad" Christians or "good" Christians in no way addresses the statement.... I also have met "bad" professing Christians...(when seen by others probably have appeared "bad" myself..) You can say the statement is ridiculus if you wish, but in all actuallity, I have never met a "perfectly moral" person But Christianity still maintains that you must know Christ as Lord and Saviour or you will go to hell. It alleviates the worry about whether or not your "good works" will outweigh your "bad works"....and that doesn't even address the fact that you are grading your own works as being good or bad...and never addresses your motives for doing anything at all and hoping that it will somehow please God.
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Post by Elliot Kane on Aug 3, 2009 1:04:33 GMT
It's more about which suit of armour you wear in front of the firing squad when it gets right down to it... ;D
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Post by janggut on Aug 3, 2009 5:23:09 GMT
Again, the thing that bothered me most about this thread was the fact that most of you seemed to forget that a world exists outside your country's borders. Why is that? It isn't hard to find out what other countries' policies and general mindsets are toward a great many topics in this day and age, you just have to put a little effort in. i guess this is where Asians like 2HD, Sonar Chix & i come in? homosexuality here is treated not too differently from any other place in the world, except that we don't really talk about it much & officially? well the officials rather sweep this under the rug. thing is, it's getting harder to deny the fact that homosexuals are present in our society & more of them are starting to show outwardly who they really are. even harder is that when some family members confessed that they are gay. the Asian world has been in denial for quite a long while but slowly it's forced to addressed this issue. continue to close one's eyes? sweep the issue under the rug? not acknowledging the elephant in the room? or use religious law to suppress & 're-educate' the homosexuals? use civil law to define what's natural & unnatural act? Malaysia can deny it & deny it still. but it's slowly changing. someone we know is gay. some of our friends are gays. some family members confess that they are gay. who are we fooling? one day Malaysia will have to face this inevitable scenario where someone they know, some friends they care about, family members that they love - are gay. sure i'm Christian & i know where the Catholic Church stands on this, but who am i to judge? heck, i'm not even good enough to judge myself!
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Post by twoheadedragon on Aug 3, 2009 8:49:22 GMT
Again, the thing that bothered me most about this thread was the fact that most of you seemed to forget that a world exists outside your country's borders. Why is that? It isn't hard to find out what other countries' policies and general mindsets are toward a great many topics in this day and age, you just have to put a little effort in. i guess this is where Asians like 2HD, Sonar Chix & i come in? homosexuality here is treated not too differently from any other place in the world, except that we don't really talk about it much & officially? well the officials rather sweep this under the rug. thing is, it's getting harder to deny the fact that homosexuals are present in our society & more of them are starting to show outwardly who they really are. even harder is that when some family members confessed that they are gay. the Asian world has been in denial for quite a long while but slowly it's forced to addressed this issue. continue to close one's eyes? sweep the issue under the rug? not acknowledging the elephant in the room? or use religious law to suppress & 're-educate' the homosexuals? use civil law to define what's natural & unnatural act? Malaysia can deny it & deny it still. but it's slowly changing. someone we know is gay. some of our friends are gays. some family members confess that they are gay. who are we fooling? one day Malaysia will have to face this inevitable scenario where someone they know, some friends they care about, family members that they love - are gay. sure i'm Christian & i know where the Catholic Church stands on this, but who am i to judge? heck, i'm not even good enough to judge myself! It is the same here Jang, and I agree with you about the judging thing. @ Zee: That's what I meant when I mentioned that there are about 300,000,000 people living in our countries.
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Post by The Sonar Chicken on Aug 3, 2009 8:59:44 GMT
It's the same here as well, THD and Jang.
Well, if the rest of Asia doesn't start waking up soon, then it'll turn into yet another of the many ticking "time bombs" Asia will need to face like "booming population, insufficient resources", "whatever they call tradition but isn't really tradition and which is ecologically, culturally detrimental",
Btw, by "Asia", you also mean "UAE", "Turkey", "Iran", etc., right?
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Post by fughawzi on Aug 3, 2009 9:43:05 GMT
This is just a very muddled thread. This reminds me of whenever I mention this in front of my father and he says "But there are no gays in Iran!" But yeah, your input is REALLY APPRECIATED SINCE PEOPLE CAN'T SEEM TO GRASP THERE ARE OTHER COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD. Ahem, hi.
To ss, I know your quote said the most moral person, but I kinda meant moral in general. And I shall happily burn in hell then.. At least I'll be surrounded by a lot of my friends!
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Post by fughawzi on Aug 3, 2009 9:49:22 GMT
I totally just edited that post about a thousand times because I confused myself. Nice work there, Ashley.
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Post by Elliot Kane on Aug 3, 2009 12:41:06 GMT
Luci - that would be the Middle East, which is probably the most gay-unfriendly place on Earth, with several countries still having the death penalty for homosexual acts and one or two even enforcing it! In most of the ME and continental Africa, just being homosexual is a criminal offence.
Needless to say, they have a long way to go, in those places.
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Post by Elliot Kane on Aug 3, 2009 12:46:23 GMT
Ah, here we go: Wiki's map of the legal acceptance of homosexualityYou were right, Zee - most of America IS pretty backwards. Only a tiny number of states even seem to allow civil unions. But then look at Africa and the ME and be happy you're an American...
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Post by The Sonar Chicken on Aug 3, 2009 15:48:10 GMT
Well, it's certainly true that this thread is muddled about which parts of the world are accepting about GLBTs and which aren't. However, we always learn something new, don't we? EK: Hmmm.. really. but then, some maps placed Middle East as a region that's part of Asia and Africa: something about them intersecting certain borders and stuff. Why can't Geography(region names) be more precise? Yeah, it's the worst likely to live in ME and I wonder what's going to happen, then, when gays, lesbians, etc. start to demand more rights. Mass executions? Holocausts? Eugenics? America is still quite intolerant, huh? Could it be that the history of that country(not geographically-speaking) is rather short, so the people can't appreciate what they've got and don't understand what it's like to lose everything?
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