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Post by Glance A'Lot on Aug 5, 2009 13:57:00 GMT
Actually most religions know some kind of 'after life' - a lot without qualification of good or bad, simply a sphere separate from the living. So most believed that there has to be 'something' after death - the concept of a soul or spirit 'living' on is ancient. So are concepts of possible inter-action between the spheres, or of people who for some reason were denied access there and wander in the 'in-between'. One can well argue that none of it is rational - but nonetheless one has to acknowledge that to date the majority of humanity does believe in some form of existance beyond death. That the various forms fight each other 'to death' is another issue!
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Post by ss on Aug 6, 2009 0:14:55 GMT
If the Muslims or the Jews are right, though, ss, I'll see YOU down there, too! ;D That would definitely be true EK ;D...
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Post by ss on Aug 6, 2009 0:40:19 GMT
Of course I don't believe in all this hell rubbish but it still is something christianbs can openly walk around with - if i told someone "you'll going to die and it'll be painful!" he'll probably call the cops cause he is sure i'll kill him! It's a principle thing people, I find it insulting that christian dare to tell me (and so many others) "you are going to die and it'll be BAAAAAD" - wheres the whole respect thing going? You puzzle me Kit, you must simply hate Christianity...ok...well and good...no sweat off my nose......but I am not telling you or anyone else they are bad.....you have your own morals and you darn well KNOW when you voilate them. For all I know you may live a perfectly fine moral life (especially by your own judgements)...but let me ask you a question. If you knew (IS this a what if..?? ;D) that someone was driving down a road and that the bridge over the river had just washed out by a rain storm, would you say nothing or warn them that if they continue they will drive into the river and be washed away.?? We Christians believe that we are called to tell others that the bridge actually is washed out and that the only bridge left is the other road. We believe Christ is the bridge that spans the gulf from this life to heaven and lets you safely cross the "gulf" of "hell"..if you will.... There is no valid biblical command to bad mouth anyone, tell them what a sinner they are, tell them anything other than Jesus saves. I believe that everyone already knows...instinctively...this includes YOU...that you are a "sinner"....I definitely know I AM... I have always known that God existed....and I have always known that I do/did things that I knew were wrong......LOOOONNNGGGG before I ever heard the word "SIN"... I always knew that if the God I heard about brought me before the judge and dispensed "justice"...I had no hope...I always knew I was guilty....that was never in doubt...I just always tried to justify it and think I could get by with it...or that maybe He would grade on a scale and I would be alright....most famous is the phrase "I did the best I could, that is all I could do...a God that is fair would take that into consideration and I'll be ok" When I found out otherwise, I threw myself on the "Mercy of the court"....and was granted MERCY...not the justice I deserved... I know that everyone that has ever been in court (at least the ones I know of) NEVER, EVER, EVER, want to be judged on whether or not they broke the law, because they ALWAYS HAVE...they want the judge to dispense MERCY, and "Forgiveness" and let you go free...even when you are guilty. That's what Christ did for me....I know it, I don't even care whether or not you believe it, but my point is to tell you that we (christians) want all people everywhere, black, white, murderers, homosexuals, criminals, etc...to know that that is available by the Grace of God through faith in Christ. I am like the Apostle Paul....I consider myself the "Chief of Sinners"....I well know what a reprobate I am. Except for that Grace I would not know what I believe to be the truth about God and that forgiveness....I, in no way, will ever consider anyone worse off than me....or more deserving of hell....
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Post by kitty on Aug 6, 2009 2:30:51 GMT
ss, with trying hard to switch question toward me so they are inevitable unanswerable without admitting some religious view, will not do anything to justify your attitude.
Your bridge example for example - if the bridge is broken and I'd know it, sure I wouldn't let someone drive on it but that as nothing to do with religion. I'd have scientific proof that the bloody bridge will probably kill the next person driving on it, there is no mystery about that, I don't have to BELIEVE in that the bridge exist, is broken and will eventually collapse.
To your last sentence:
"I, in no way, will ever consider anyone worse off than me....or more deserving of hell...."
Of course you do. You think anyone not believeing in what you believe deserves to go to hell and even though you might be aware of your own "sinning", you do know you are granted this great mercy your god is giving to the ones you let "jesus in their heart".
And to answer the other indirect question in your latest post ss, no I do not believe I'm a sinner, because I don't believe in "sin", people make mistakes, people do rather stupid things but that kind of things are killing someone, getting knocked up with 12 or starting christal meth. Having sex, being gay, lying if need be, or even stealing if someone is about to die is no mistake in my eyes, at all. Therefore the concept of sinning doesn't make much sense to me and I never did any big mistake (never killed, not a junkie yet and not a teeny mum either) so I'm not a "sinner".
But really, this all is so off topic people... we already have 2 ss threads.
oh and @ Eli - my problem is that I, even though I think religious people talk rubbish and believe in rather dangerous theories, still don't go around and tell them to deserve to die! That IS a difference, you see.
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Post by Elliot Kane on Aug 6, 2009 6:01:27 GMT
I don't think I've ever seen any of the Christians on here tell anyone they deserve to die, Kit... You're just as loud in proclaiming your own metaphorical bridge, though, aren't you? 'Atheism Saves!' right? 'Only Atheism can rescue humanity from it's own dark impulses'? All of that... That's always the thing that fascinates me when two ideologies clash: both believe utterly in THEIR truth and will not give an inch. Both can rubbish the opposition at length, but neither admits to anything less than absolute truth in their own side. A peculiarly human foible, I am sure you will agree
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Post by Terrordar on Aug 6, 2009 9:08:00 GMT
Atheism can't save humanity, because Atheism doesn't inherently believe anything. ALL Atheism means is a lack of a belief in a god.
Thats all. It doesn't not mean anything else.
I'm an atheist, and I'm a damn near fascist, or occasionally communist depending how charitable I feel. I do not represent the 'salvation' of man, because I think countries should take care of their own business, and I don't believe in a unified world of happy go lucky idiots who all get along together despite their differences.
I am an Atheist, and by many post-modern standards I would be considered a monster, or a son of a [Censored]. Some might even lump me in the Theist pile.
The simple truth is, Atheism is NOT Secular Humanism, because Secular Humanism is [Censored] its Atheism which they are trying to market as a religion, and its bull[Censored]
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Post by Dark Phoenix Rising on Aug 6, 2009 15:41:51 GMT
i think a slightly better example than ss' would be - A local of the area knows that in heavy rain fall the main route through this particular stretch of mountains is prone to flash floods that wipe out everything in their path, however there's a small dirt track that winds it's way up the mountains and over that is safe as long as you're careful. He tries to warn everyone of the danger whenever a storm brews, but because it's in the middle of nowhere very few people really listen, or they assume that they can get through before the storm hits, or they don't believe they can drive the dirt track.
The local has no evidence to show the people that they would believe, but if they did their own research or waited around long enough he'd be proven to be right. However as in life, people in that sort of situation don't have the luxury of going to the library, or waiting for it to go wrong, they have to make the best decision they can with the information they have.
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Post by Elliot Kane on Aug 6, 2009 23:29:51 GMT
It's more like half a dozen people at least all telling you about different paths and claiming that ONLY their path is safe, DPR...
Who do you believe? None have evidence and all ask for your total trust...
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Post by ss on Aug 6, 2009 23:59:23 GMT
It's more like half a dozen people at least all telling you about different paths and claiming that ONLY their path is safe, DPR... Who do you believe? None have evidence and all ask for your total trust... Define trust....I don't think any ask for trust like Christianity does?? Could be wrong, but following the Buddah would be an effort in proper ?"work". ?? wouldn't it?? I am thinking along these lines....One can only become a Christian by trusting Christ's work, none of your own...and if you wish to follow the teachings of Christ, it would be because you ALREADY ARE a Christian...because following his teachings without being one, gets you absolutely NOTHING...EVER... To me that is unique....maybe someone can explain others which I may be ignorant of..
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Post by Elliot Kane on Aug 7, 2009 0:17:01 GMT
All comes to the same, ss. It's the people doing the preaching we all hear from, after all. The guys knocking at my door can't allow me to talk directly to Jesus or Mohammed or Abraham or Buddha or Guru Nanak, or... You get the idea.
And all they have to say, is "Only we follow the right path!"
Being able to point to the odd difference in approach here and there... Well, they all have their selling points, don't they?
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Post by janggut on Aug 7, 2009 3:32:57 GMT
agreed. on the outside, & at certain perspective(s), that is true. after all, the basis is still belief in the prefered belief system. after u've made that decision to believe, comes the details.
once u're on the inside, your perspective swings dramatically. the details are now emphasised.
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Post by Dark Phoenix Rising on Aug 7, 2009 9:29:06 GMT
from the path analogy -
@ek you're right, each one has their own path, but from the starting point you can't see which ones are safe and which ones are un-safe, and once you're on one after traveling a bit and getting a little higher you can see pitfalls on the other paths but the path you're on appears to be safe, not because there are no pitfalls, but because you're more focused on your own path.
IMO Christianity would be like the path that runs almost parallel with the road, and dips back towards the road quite frequently, sometimes even running so close to the road that it's just a step away.
The path that I'm on would be like the one that no one else has advertised, it runs near the road, but in some places it's easy walking and in others I'm having to carve my own handholds.
The Jewish path would be very hard to get to, requiring a lot of time and effort, but once you're there it is fairly easy going because so many people have travelled it before.
The islamic path is fairly easy to get on to, but once you're there while the path is distinct it's also narrow, and it takes you out over the most dangerous terrain making it very difficult to get off the path if you decide that you've taken the wrong one.
The hindu path is a wide and well travelled path that can be seen from any of the other paths, but the way onto it cannot be seen.
And finally the pagan paths are old and almost forgotten, but there are people that say they remember their grand father walking that path. Parts of the path are clear and easy to walk, but other parts are indistinct, double back, or have plain being distroyed, though there is a lot of restoration work going on where people have started walking these paths again.
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Post by Elliot Kane on Aug 7, 2009 11:44:32 GMT
The modern pagan path bears no true relation to the old religions, it's just a modern attempt to create a new version of what once was. All of the old rites are lost and the old beliefs only really remain as myths and legends. The religions themselves had been dead for far too long a time to be accurately revived. It's a very innocent (Though I do not doubt the sincerity) view of a whole set of religions that were often far darker than the modern pagan would wish to be.
So say, rather, that it is a new path whose adherents all marvel at how old it is! ;D
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Post by Dark Phoenix Rising on Aug 7, 2009 13:11:18 GMT
The modern pagan path bears no true relation to the old religions, it's just a modern attempt to create a new version of what once was. All of the old rites are lost and the old beliefs only really remain as myths and legends. The religions themselves had been dead for far too long a time to be accurately revived. It's a very innocent (Though I do not doubt the sincerity) view of a whole set of religions that were often far darker than the modern pagan would wish to be. So say, rather, that it is a new path whose adherents all marvel at how old it is! ;D I didn't say how many parts of the path(s) are clear esp. I didn't say how many of the clear parts of the path(s) are original. Some of the bits of the religions are more authentic than others (e.g. the norse paths have more authentic rites and rituals than greek or egyptian because by the time they got converted, a lot of their lore had been committed to writing)
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Post by Elliot Kane on Aug 7, 2009 13:55:28 GMT
If they were THAT authentic, DPR, we'd have heard about the court cases... ;D
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Post by Dark Phoenix Rising on Aug 7, 2009 16:31:20 GMT
erm, doesn't that all depend on the religion??? After all human sacrifice wasn't all that common, and neither was rape...
And there's a reason why new witches are warned not to partipate in "the grand rite" if their high priest asks them to.
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Post by Terrordar on Aug 7, 2009 18:45:01 GMT
There were a lot of dark ceremonies done by Pagans largely. And some were quite unforgiving (The Nordic Pagans come to mind)
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Post by Elliot Kane on Aug 8, 2009 1:56:38 GMT
Indeed so, Terror. And that's without the ONLY way to get into Nordic heaven being death in battle...
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Post by Dark Phoenix Rising on Aug 8, 2009 11:37:04 GMT
Erm, aren't we forgetting that valhalla wasn't the only norse heaven, just the most famous one today. Each of the gods had a heaven, and you had to do different things to get into each one. And only if you didn't qualify for any of them did you go to hel. Then consider the native american religions - which are pretty much unchanged (though diminished in number) which also have a lot of "harsh" rituals but nothing that is actually immoral, just stuff that would be considered barbaric to most westerners (e.g. hanging out in the sun with a hook through the skin on your chest until the sun baked it off, and then having to walk under your own power to the rest of the tribe as a man hood rite. If you fail, then you have to try again next year)
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Post by Elliot Kane on Aug 8, 2009 11:58:06 GMT
Dunno what the heck you've been reading, DPR, but the gods of Asgard in every legend I've read - and there've been more than a few books about their mythology on my reading list - only ever mention two places they send the dead: Valhalla and the Underworld. 'Hel' or 'Hela' is the name of the goddess who rules the Underworld, as I'm sure you know, so 'going to Hel' is not at all the same thing as the Christian version of that phrase. Sure, I may have missed some stuff, but individual heavens? I kinda doubt it. Not unless a LOT has been left out... It's like with the Greeks: its the Elysium Fields if the gods like you and joining Hades if they don't (Hence 'going to Hades' of course).
The Norse religion is centred around battle and warfare. Prisoners were regularly sacrificed to their gods. They may not ever have sacrificed their own people, but it all went a bit beyond 'considered barbaric'... The entire point of the whole Norse religion is that the gods are preparing a huge army for Ragnarok, after all, so they want all the best warriors.
It's rare amongst the old religions NOT to have human sacrifice of some sort. The Greeks certainly did, 'civilised' or not... Any time a major disaster reared it's head, some poor girl got thrown off a cliff to appease Poseidon or whoever else they thought was responsible...
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