Selfimage Honesty

[kitty]

I couldn´t figure out a better name.

I was reflecting myself recently (way too much) and discovered that my personal selfimage and my image of others is disturbed under general perspectives.

I made a selftest. I erased, temporerally, all of my trained politness, tolerance and health-lifestyle-cultural precautions and thought about what I like and dislike about peoples looks - and the results aren´t nice.

When I walk on the streets, most (90%) of all females and males I meet, I consider overweight. A fair few of them are not. They are in the famous healthy BMI range but for my honest selfmade image, they are "too much to love".

My healthconcious, culturally and etiquettetrained mind disagrees, of course.
I look at those size 8 (US) women and know instinctivly that this is a healthy weight (let´s say we talking average 5"5/1,68m female, aged from 13 to 30).

But if I´d be honest, I´d say they are overweight.

Same goes for style.

My tolerant-trained, subculture-concious mind couldn´t care less what those women and men wear (as long as they wear something) but my honest, selfreflecting mind thinks in 80% of all cases "could that be any more boring/unflattering?".

I´m more tolerant with men though (guess I´m straight). I can´t forgive a women walking in front of me to the train that she didn´t shave her legs. But I can overlook some guys fingernails being dirty.

I can´t forgive a guys beerbelly or the ass that is shown when he bends over though. But in the polite world that I grew up in, I wouldn´t ever let it show.

That trained political correctness has consequences.

It influences my judgement on people. I might not be verbalizing my distaste of certain visual attributes to them but in my mind, it builds a certain disgust and that makes me not want to interact with them. How would I handle being with a woman whos lady beard grosses me out? How can I find a man interesting whos lovehandles are bigger then my entire body?

But still I do interact with those people on a daily basis. Because the taught part of my brain tells me that being opinionated in that extreme fashion is intolerant and mean.

But what if, for a day, we all would be perfectly honest and say what we think about other peoples physics and habits - would that be the start of a mass suicide?

[Elliot Kane]

Or mass murder or both, yes. I think so.

Looking at people in an entirely physical way, many and perhaps most are deeply unattractive. Whether they are too fat, too thin, or just a general shape or size that does not appeal, the result is the same. Worse from my POV is the clear evidence of their lifestyle they carry on their faces without even knowing it.

But that kinda brings me to the way i perceive things. I can tell a lot about someone by looking at their face, at how they dress, at how they carry themselves, at the spark in their eye that says how smart they are... There is no such thing as 'just physical' to me. I relate to a whole person and there are very few people that are ugly to the bone.

So I couldn't do what you did because it would mean switching off a lot of knowledge I use automatically in the split second it takes me to look at someone.

But all that knowledge also means I could be a whole lot crueler, I guess...

So yeah - best never to go there, eh?

[Flix]

Not to mention, what happens when you turn that cruel and unmerciful eye upon yourself and find your own body lacking? Increasing tolerance for others' ugliness helps you be more comfortable with your own, I'd think.

[kitty]

Oh I wasn´t trying to make a post about that tolerance is better. Of course it is, we don´t need to talk about that.

I was just trying to make an experiment on how honest we all are, I was also not referring to beauty. I was absolutly erasing all aspects but pure physics.

And the challenge is to do just that.

I find it particular alarming to see the age in what people are fat today. A 13 year old teen, being 5"5, shouldn´t weigh 187 pound (about 85 kg) but that is a very dominant trend on all streets in the western hemisphere and it´s just pure gross to me. Of course, only when I forget my teaching and etiquette - when I recall that, it is just "a bit unhealthy"...

[Elliot Kane]

If you want to make the most interesting cognitive leap, try to forget people are 'just like you' and see them as if they were just any other type of animal at a zoo or in the wild. Watch their behaviour patterns.

You'll very quickly see just how few behavioural differences there are between us and any other kind of natural creature.

[Glance A'Lot]

Oh no - I'm everything she hates - old, overweight, smoking, probably wrongly dressed, having the wrong job and I live in the same town as she...

...and now she's telling me - to my face!

And that from a woman who is everything I like - young, slim, I don't care what she wears and what job she has...

...or should I care of the opinion of some young, haggard, opiniated ..., who never actually met me?

You know what? I think I actually would...

That's what getting to know each other virtually - which reflects at least a part of each's personality - does. One starts to care.

So my conclusion is - yes we should speak the truth to each other, nothing but the truth - but not always the whole truth!

{By the way, one thing shaved legs are not, is natural beauty... ;D }

[Elliot Kane]

But on the bright side, once you achieve a true separation between pro-human prejudice and observation, all you see are people. they aren't 'attractive' or 'unattractive' because the terms cease to have meaning. They simply exist, like any other creature

[Glance A'Lot]

Well - 'attractive' comes from 'being drawn towards' and that is often (or rather should always be) independent of actual (subjective) beauty, and has no real relation to likeable or nice to talk to or want to be with.

That we use attractive in a limited context of physical looks is actually wrong (and modern media?) perception.

[The Sonar Chicken]

Interesting... but I'd like to point out something about weight: that it constantly changes for many. For example: someone could be in the totally healthy range but be grossly overweight or even underweight in the next few months. It all depends a lot on their emotional stability and other factors.

Besides, for many... obesity is actually a side effect of eating disorders. Having struggled briefly with harsh dieting practises and nearly developing anorexia and bulimia, these people have my sympathy. It's not as easy to quit eating and dieting.

[kitty]

@ Sonar - All true. I´m well aware that from a health POV all my overthetop problems with overweight people are completely rude and unconsidered but that is why I made the post - because I was taught to not ever coment on it, but if I would be HONEST, I would say woman in her tweens 1,60m and 60kg = overweight, not nice to look at. But actually, that woman is healthy (weightwise).

I´m underweight myself. Very. To reach what people call a healthy BMI I would need to gain about 10kg but no way in hell would I ever voluntarily do that (well and I can´t, genetics) - I was asking myself before posting that post "why am I so extreme in my perception of other peoples looks? And what do I REALLY think?" I found it interesting and thought it gives some discussion.

I do not wanna glamourize eating disorders.

(ok that was a bit of a confusing rant)

[kitty]

May 13, 2009 16:05:42 GMT Glance A'Lot said:

Oh no - I'm everything she hates - old, overweight, smoking, probably wrongly dressed, having the wrong job and I live in the same town as she...

...and now she's telling me - to my face!

And that from a woman who is everything I like - young, slim, I don't care what she wears and what job she has...

...or should I care of the opinion of some young, haggard, opiniated ..., who never actually met me?

You know what? I think I actually would...

That's what getting to know each other virtually - which reflects at least a part of each's personality - does. One starts to care.

So my conclusion is - yes we should speak the truth to each other, nothing but the truth - but not always the whole truth!

{By the way, one thing shaved legs are not, is natural beauty... ;D }

Natural beauty is by far the biggest lie people tell each other - some people have symmetric and therefore nicetolookat features but when we see someone walking down the street, he or she is NEVER "naturally" beautiful. The man we saw with that stunning face just recently had a haircut and a tan and that woman with that fantastic body just came from waxing, peeling, wearing highheels to hide her stoutness... both are probably on some kind of diet (which they call "a healthy lifestyle" of course) and it´s quite possible that both forgot what their natural haircolor is.

There is no such thing as natural beauty.

[kitty]

May 13, 2009 16:15:23 GMT Elliot Kane said:

But on the bright side, once you achieve a true separation between pro-human prejudice and observation, all you see are people. they aren't 'attractive' or 'unattractive' because the terms cease to have meaning. They simply exist, like any other creature

I could do that but it isn´t what helps me understand human perception of visual appereance. That humans are animals is no news but I personally think it is impossible to not feel attracted or unattracted by ones own will. I met people who were very kind but totally unattractive and that formed my further opinion - if I want or not.

(it´s an interesting topic, isn´t it? ^^)

[Glance A'Lot]

There is no such thing as natural beauty.

Really? Or is it just that we lost appreciating it long ago?

Make up - being falsifying the (natural) image is old, ancient actually - it is also very human.

Is ist 'effect'ive? Obviously, or it wouldn't persist. It is not natural, but 'reason'able by actually working in the eyes of the beholder. IMO it's socially trained perception (it also changes with fashion and culture) not natural feeling.

Seemingly we have actually lost the capability to appreciate, and to accept, the natural look.

I was just somewhat irritated, and amused, by a perceived paradoxon between:

...I'm not interested in a pretty popimage. I get told a lot that I should get one, when asking, people explain me that I should bleach my hair and make mascara & lipgloss to the most imrpotant things in my life. Beside that I should walk around all smiles and friendly agreeing to everything when I wander through the athmosphere and "omg" I totally need highheels!

Or not.

and the views stated in the first post on what people should look like.

Beauty lies in the eyes of (s)he who looks - it's subjective.
That everybody is cheating, self and others, is the result of an imposed social pressure in the pursuit of 'perfection', to liken an artificlal (unnatural) ideal.

But it is indeed a fact of life.

[Elliot Kane]

I think I agree with Glance regarding 'natural' beauty.

***

Kit - it takes quite a bit of doing to achieve that degree of cognitive shift, I must admit. In essence, you have to stop thinking of yourself as human, which is far from easy. Fortunately, because it's a deliberate shift and so hard to do in the first place it's really easy to snap back again.

And yeah - this is definitely an interesting topic

[kitty]

Glance - towards my post in the music forum, this is another topic. The music topic was about image and what for that speicifc life event is appropriate (or considered so) and necessary. This topic here is about the view a normal person has in a normal everyday lifesituation.

When talking about "image", it´s not simple thin or not, blonde hair or brown, there it is about what sells what doesn´t, it´s not per se about what the average person feels is pretty, it´s ideal overthetopness.

In the normal world, walking around in a cocktaildress at 2pm in the afternoon with and having hair bleached to the point of turning white, is for most people, too much and not pretty but weird. In everyday life, pretty is about fitting nicely in that skinny jeans and have hair that matches the eyes. It´s quite tricky.

Personally, I dont think our need to change ourselfs is trained behaviour. I don´t think that cavepeople just "let themselfs go" completely. I´m quite sure they already put flowers or whatever in their hair and tried to get the bestlooking furcoat. We all want to impress and overpower that other male or female that could steal our male/female. I think therefore that natural beauty is a myth, never existed and never will.

@eli - ye, it´s quite hard, isn´t it? One would also need to turn out ones hormones and I someone think that´s not going to work *sigh*

[kitty]

We could, out of fun, try to all image our perfect bodyimage - could be interesting to see what people think is "right"

[Elliot Kane]

Well, I could afford to lose about an inch off my stomach. But I'm naturally slim, still have some of the musculature from my body building days and overall I'm pretty happy, especially as I'm heading up on 41 and could easily pass for 30.

I've never liked having much of a stomach, though. My body image is basically 'slim' I think.

[kitty]

Hehe I actually meant on OTHER people but that´s cool too

(bodybuilding eh? I started to go to the gym not too long ago, I practically die afterwards, guess I´m not very strong just yet )

[Elliot Kane]

Oh, other people. I'm not focused enough on appearance to care, honestly. I know what I find attractive, but beyond that my interest lies in what the look tells me about the person more than what the look is, if that makes sense.

[Glance A'Lot]

it makes to me...

But Kitty's We could, out of fun, try to all image our perfect bodyimage - could be interesting to see what people think is "right" is indeed an interesting thought - I think there'll be some common basics with a number of subjective nuances.