*SPOILERS* Finish Harry Potter First

[Shan]

*Warning Spoilers*

Do not read this thread unles you have finished the Half Blood Prince. Spoilers are not hidden.

This is a chapter by chapter thread. General discussion of the book will still be in Peter's thread.

Tragic and I are starting this thread to discuss the latest Harry Potter book chapter by chapter. We will start with chapter 1 and work our way through the book. If any of you have any thoughts that you would like to contribute to the chapter we are discussing, please feel free to do so.

If we have already passed a chapter that you would like to comment on, just but the chapter number first in your post and we will make additional comments concerning that chapter and your post.

If you would like to tie something in a chapter to another book, please feel free to do so, because we will be doing the same.

Tragic, did I forget anything? If I did let me know and I will go back and add it in.

Now on to the fun part.

Shan

[Shan]

Chapter 1

I was surprised to find that the Muggle Prime Minister knew Fudge, about the wizarding world and that the two worked together in a way. I do not remember this being mentioned in previous books. I was also surprised that Fudge stayed on under Scrimgeour.

Just a thought or two to get things going Tragic. Will add more after your post.

Shan

[dominiccarr]

Chapter one

Yeah, that surprised me too.

[tragic]

Shan ..nope you have covered it!!

Chapter 1

I was surprised by the whole chapter!!!

I am not sure how this relates to the entire series but it does show that the PM does know about the wizard world.

Its odd that Rowling doesnt start off with the Dursleys..and the tension which was there between Harry and the Durselys.

Rowling i think doesnst like the American President..she mentions that the PM "is expecting a call from a president of a far off country" which may or may not be a certan Mr Bush...i know this isnt supposed to be politcial but its what i read from it.

Also i think adult people try not to beleive in magic..like they are afraid to accept something out of the norm...thats how the muggle PM behaves anyway and Rowling seems to highlight that fact.

Those were my thoughts anyway.

[tragic]

One last thing...the ministry of magic seems to think that Voldy will attack the PM...he mentions that Kingelsy is there for the PMs protecton....if they are rght then i wonder what Voldy could gain by assassinating the PM...taking control of the country..kill its citizens and turn them into playthings for the wizards???

Or destroy all mudbloods to preserve the wizard line??

[Shan]

Shan ..nope you have covered it!!

Thanks Tragic. I gave it a good try.

If you think of anything that should be added at any time just let me know.

Shan

[Shan]

Chapter 1

I was a little surprised she didn't start off at the Dursley's too, but Goblet of Fire started at the Riddle House so I guess that is all that unusual. Starting with the Prime Minister and the Minister of Magic was different and gave you another insight to their two different worlds. (wizards and muggles)
Good start.

She very well could have been hinting he was waiting for a call from the American president. I had never thought of that. Interesting idea though.

I also found it interesting that the Prime Minister had a magical portrait hanging in his office who would announce the Minister of Magic's arrival. Well you might be able to pass this off as a hallucinations, but but how can you avoid the idea when your tea cup turns into a Gerbil.

One thing I really like about the chapter was how Rowling captured the true character of two politicians in the Prime Minister and Fudge. Each not wanting to take the blame for what happened that brought about their meeting/meetings. Blame the other guy if you can. I thought this was very funny, but very realistic.

For some reason, I did not get a good feeling about Scrimgeour, not much better than Fudge as the Minister of Magic was my first thought and why him instead of someone else. This guy just seems like trouble.

I'm not sure I go along with the idea about Voldemort being a threat to the muggles. Could be and I just didn't pick up on it. I got more of the idea that Fudge was telling him all of it to make things kind of hot for Scrimgeour as kind of revenge for being demoted. He did immediately tell the Prime Minister afterwards that he was no longer Minister of Magic. I also didn't see Fudge staying on as Scrimgeour's assistant without some arm twisting.

I guess that is about all I can think of at the moment.
Comments, anything else come to mind?


If not would you like to start the next chapter, Tragic?

Shan

[tragic]

nicely done there Shan!!!

Ok,Chapter 2.

I admit i loved this chapter,i mean until now i thought that Snapes private life was something forbidden,or outside the scope of the books.

I am a bit surprised at the state of the house, i expected Snape to have slightly more of a posh outlook..but then again it does say that the house is usually uninhabitable...maybe Snape lives at Hogwarts?...thats what i felt in book 4..when Filch woke up Snape when Harry was walking around with the golden egg and maruders map.

Now the house seems to have lots of secret passageways which is what i would expect from Snape.
Wormtial is there...not surprisingreally...i bet Snape asked for him so that he could get back at wormtail for bullying him in school.

But then again i bet wornmtail is out for himself..to save his own skin. Im surprised that we didnt see wormtial in as much detial in this book or the last but i expect him to pla some important role in book 7...probably like others have suggested..that he betrays Voldy and runs for his life.

Will complete the review for chapter two tomorrow...but anyone can feel free join in....quite alot to say .

[Shan]

And I will add my comments about chapter 2 tonight or tomorrow. There are some things I want to look at again in the chapter before posting and I didn't have time to do it over the weekend.

I loved this chapter though. It was one of the best out of the whole book.

Great thoughts so far Tragic. Will be looking forward to reading the rest.

Shan

[Shan]

Chapter 2

Tragic, I am going to start this chapter, but I don't know if I will get it finished tonight or not. There are so many things I want to mention and would like to know your thoughts on. I will also try to comment on your thoughts as I go through the chapter.

First do you remember Spinner's End being mentioned in any other book? I don't but it has been a long time since I read the others.

I like the way Rowling kept you wondering who the two were to start with and then how she kept you wondering who they were going to see. This was very well done and drew my interest almost immediately.

How did Narcissa know how to find Snape? Bella didn't seem to know because she asked Narcissa if he lived here in this Muggle dunghill. (must be a very poor section of town or the slums just from the way she said it).

The next thing of interest is Bella doesn't seem to trust Snape, but why? She tells Narcissa that she can't trust him, but Narcissa refuses to listen since as he puts it "The Dark Lord trusts him, doesn't he?" Then Bella says "The Dark Lord is..... I believe.......mistaken." Bella is scared that Vordemort will find out they went there, but Narcissa is determined. At this point we still don't know why.

I am a bit surprised at the state of the house, i expected Snape to have slightly more of a posh outlook..but then again it does say that the house is usually uninhabitable...maybe Snape lives at Hogwarts?...thats what i felt in book 4..when Filch woke up Snape when Harry was walking around with the golden egg and maruders map.

I think Bella was expecting him to live in a better house in a better section of town. She seemed surprised at where he lived. Narcissa didn't though.

I think Snape did live at Hogwarts during the school year. In fact I think all of the teachers probably lived there during the school term, and maybe had homes other places where they lived during summer vacation.

Did you notice how Narcissa called Snape by his first name as she entered the house? That seems like she probably knew him pretty well or had had dealings with him a number of times in the past or could it be because he was an old friend of Lucius'?

Now the house seems to have lots of secret passageways which is what i would expect from Snape.
Wormtial is there...not surprisingreally...i bet Snape asked for him so that he could get back at wormtail for bullying him in school.

But then again i bet wornmtail is out for himself..to save his own skin. Im surprised that we didnt see wormtial in as much detial in this book or the last but i expect him to pla some important role in book 7...probably like others have suggested..that he betrays Voldy and runs for his life.

Yeah, it does make you wonder why all the secret passages. Maybe in case he had to make a quick get away or something like that.

I was surprised to find Wormtail there. Did she mention that in another book? I wondered why he would be there?
Wormtail says that he is not Snape's servant and Snape says that Vordemort put him there to assist him. Assist him in doing what because Wormtail agrees but says it wasn't to make drinks for him or clean his house. It is clear that Wormtail is not pleased about helping Snape and it is also clear that he would like to listen in on the conversation. Could he be spying on Snape for Voldemort? He seems to scared of Vordemort do go against him.

Bella is very suspicious of Snape and their conversation stresses that, but Snape has an answer to all of her questions even if they are ones that she doesn't like. All of these go to lead you in the direction of believing that Snape is on Vordemort's side. Even here though what was said in at least one other book by Dumbledore haunts me. He trusted Snape completely. So even here I still have my doubts that Snape is working with Vordemort.

Now here is the big question. Did Snape already know of the Dark Lord's plan to get Draco to kill Dumbledore? I am not sure. I have my doubts. What do you think?

I am going to quit here until after I've heard more of what you think. I do want to talk about my last question some more, but I would like to know what you think before I do.

OK, Tragic, it is all yours. What do you think?

Shan

[tragic]

Chapter 2


Yes there seems to be warmth or some of it between Snape and Narcissa....i like the fact tha Snape seems to be enjoying his stint as a double agent..i mean he knows Bella doesnt trust him and so his facial expressions seem to mock Bella....he usually smiles or is amused at Bella's lack of trust in him.

Now Snape never lets on in many detail about the plan in question...he justs says he knows about the plan and through info of the others...he can guess what the plan is about.

Of course this is a clever move.....the death eaters themsleves do not talk about the plan as its forbidden and so Snape can pretend to know about it without fearing reprisals.

Wormtial: He doest figure in book 5..so it seems as if he was busy or always under Snapes wing. Voldy said that Wormtail might have a problem in remaining faithful so sent him under Snapes wing.

For Snape to have convinced the dark lord means that Snape must be an incredible powerful wizard...or he didnt have to lie becuase his " aibi" seems air-tight.

He also mentons that the Dark lord intends for him to do it in the end....i.e kill dumbledore...again Snape must be a pretty powerful wizard (i think) to have the guts to kill Dumbledore.

The unbreakable vow was interesting. I mean does it mean that Snape really is in league with the Death eaters or does it mean that making the unbreakable vow becuase he knows that is exactly what Dumbledore wants and so there is no conflict.

Also why would the dark lord want to kill Dumbledore and not Harry...hmmm now reflecting on that point it seems like Voldy has tried before to kill Harry and failed...so decides to move for Dumby instead.

Phew quite alot there

Thanks Shan for your ideas...hopefully you might disagree with me!!!

[Shan]

Chapter 2

Great thoughts Tragic. Now let's see if I can give you some things to think about.

Yes there seems to be warmth or some of it between Snape and Narcissa....i like the fact tha Snape seems to be enjoying his stint as a double agent..i mean he knows Bella doesnt trust him and so his facial expressions seem to mock Bella....he usually smiles or is amused at Bella's lack of trust in him.

I agree. I think Snape really enjoys iritating Bella, so much so that he gives her those looks just to see what kind of reaction he can get out of her.

That to me also says that he is not afraid of her or what she thinks about him. He seems to care less about what she might tell Vordemort which means he feels pretty secure in his position with Voldemort.

For Snape to have convinced the dark lord means that Snape must be an incredible powerful wizard...or he didnt have to lie becuase his " aibi" seems air-tight.

I think that Snape is a very powerful wizard. How powerful I am not sure, but powerful, because of his knowledge of the Dark Arts. I think Vordemorte trusts Snape because of past information that Snape has given him. Even here when I think about what Dumbledore said about trusting Snape in the other books, I get the idea that maybe Snape has passed on to Voldemort information that either the Order or Dumbledore has had him pass on to ensure his role as Voldemort's spy. I can see that Dumbledore and the Order would want him trusted by Voldemort without a doubt.

Also why would the dark lord want to kill Dumbledore and not Harry...hmmm now reflecting on that point it seems like Voldy has tried before to kill Harry and failed...so decides to move for Dumby instead.

My only response to this is that we know Voldemort wants Harry dead, but I think in order to kill him he knows he must first get him out from under Dumbledore's protection.
Dumbledore is very, very powerful and I think Voldemort
knows he will protect Harry at all costs. With Dumbledore dead though, he sees his chances of killing Harry improving.

Now Snape never lets on in many detail about the plan in question...he justs says he knows about the plan and through info of the others...he can guess what the plan is about.

Of course this is a clever move.....the death eaters themsleves do not talk about the plan as its forbidden and so Snape can pretend to know about it without fearing reprisals.

What you have just stated here is part of the reason I wonder if Snape already knew of the plan or not. I get the feeling that maybe he didn't. That he was using Narcissa to get the information so he could then relate it to Dumbledore. I also think that this is one reason that he wanted to make sure that Wormtail wasn't around. I am still not positive that Wormtail wasn't there to spy on Snape for Voldemorte. Lots of questions in this part.


I am going to quit here for the moment. I want to check a few things and then I will finish answering your post and throw some other questions at you.

You're right. There is tons of speculations in this chapter.

Shan

[Shan]

Tragic, the post you made just before my last one, would you mind modifying it and put the chapter at the top of it. I think it will make it easier for anybody who reads this to keep up with the chapters we are talking about in each post.

The reason I think this is because I am sure at some time I will think of something I left out of a chapter and need to go back and put an older chapter in.

Did I make sense? I'm not sure I did, but if I didn't ask me to explain again. May not be any better, but I'll give it a try.

Shan

[Shan]

Chapter 2

He also mentons that the Dark lord intends for him to do it in the end....i.e kill dumbledore...again Snape must be a pretty powerful wizard (i think) to have the guts to kill Dumbledore.

Do you think that Snape and Dumbledore could have already talked about the possibility of it coming down to this?

Back when he was answering Bella's questions, Snape mentions that Dumbledore is getting old and that he had really been shook by a duel he had had with Voldemort the month before. Snape also mentions that Dumbledore had sustained a serious injury because his reactions were slower than what they use to be.

Maybe Dumbledore believes that Voldemort will send one of the Death Eaters after him since he knows he is now weaker. Could it be that he talked to Snape and told him that if he was asked to kill him that he was to do it in order to maintain his position of spying on Voldemort for the Order and for what he knew would take place with Harry?

The unbreakable vow was interesting. I mean does it mean that Snape really is in league with the Death eaters or does it mean that making the unbreakable vow becuase he knows that is exactly what Dumbledore wants and so there is no conflict.

No, I do not believe the vow means that Snape is really in league with Voldemort. I believe as I stated above that he and Dumbledore have already discussed the possibility of him being asked to kill him. I think Snape was able to make the vow because he knew that it would be what Dumbledore wanted him to do (kill him if he had to).

He hesitated and his hand twitched when asked to vow that he would carry out the deed if Draco could not. It's as if he knew he didn't want to, but knew that he had to, so he says "I will."


There was a conversation in book 4 near the end just after Dumbledore has sent Sirus off to alert Lupin, Figg, Fletcher and the rest of the old crowd that Voldemort was back where Dumbledore turned to Snape and said "You know what I must ask you to do. If you are ready......if you are prepared......." "I am," said Snape. Even though chapter 2 tries to make you believe Snape is on Voldemort's side, this conversation along with others makes me believe that he is really on Dumbledore's. "If you are prepared," to means that Snape needed to make sure he was covered and that Voldemort would have no idea he was there because of Dumbledore.

Phew!!!!!!!!!!! A very heavy chapter.

Shan

[Shan]

Tragic, which version of the book do you have? Is it the UK version or the English version like what I would have?

Which ever go to the thread that Peter started for the entire book and read the post I just posted to him. Then tell me what you think.

Also if you have the UK version check your book against the post. My book reads just like the last part.

Shan

[Shan]

Chapter 2

Snape lies to Bella here.

"Of course, it became apparent to me very quickly that he had no extraordinary talent at all. He has fought his way out of a number of tight corners by a simple combination of sheer luck and more talented friends. He is mediocre to the last degree..."

He know Harry is a powerful wizard. He knows Harry is a parselmouth. He knows Harry could conjure a corporeal patronus when he was just 13. That took a lot of power. He knows Harry has stood up to Voldemort and prevailed. Why did he lie to Bella?


Here is another thought about Snape, Narcissa, and Draco's mission.

We know that Snape is a powerful Legilimens. He has proven that in another book.

When Snape gets up and walks to the window, looks out and then jerks the curtains close. What was he doing while standing there? Could he have been reading Narcissa's thoughts. You know that since she was just about to tell him of Draco's mission, it was high priority in her thoughts. After reading her mind, he could have lied about knowing about the mission to gain Narcissa's and Bella's trust. Remember Bella was shocked when he said he knew about it.

During all of this Snape has lied to them several times to make them think Voldemort trusts him. If he was that loyal to Voldemort why would he lie to them?

I don't think he is as loyal to Voldemort as the surface of this chapter makes him seem. I really think his loyality lies with Dumbledore.

Just stated it in a different way.

Shan

[tragic]

Shan..yes modified the post

The difference is interesting between the English and American versions...but really its a re-iteration of what Snape says in Chpater 2.."in the unlikely event that Draco suceeds"

Ive got the English version i think..well ive got 607 pages i think thats the English version.

Its interesting that Dumby might have agreed to his own death....Dumby is very intelligent and maybe realises that now is the right time for Harry to take initiative.

He said that it was only Harry who could kill Dumby...but i think Dumby realises that so long as he is around Harry would never well grow up.

But then again is it necessery for Dumby to plan his own death???
Why couldnt he have just left or something....with Dumby gone Harry would still have to step up.

hmmmmmmm

Shan spotted something which i didnt.

Snape knew that Harry had some sort of power...as you mention he could speak parseltongue etc...but maybe Snape wanted to downplay Harrys greatness becuase of his hatred towards Harrys father.

Reading Narcissa's thoughts is possible and again something i didnt see..it also explans as i said why Snape would venture that he new of the plan.

Phew

[tragic]

Chapter 2

Though it must be said Snape only looks into Cissa only briefly...Snape did say that eye-contact is essential for legilmancy...though could he have read her thoughts in those few seconds??

Now im begining to have some doubts...i think Voldy did not know of the plan but through other sources like Dumbledore or possibly legimamancy of other death eaters..Snape figured out the plan.

Bella also doesnt seem to be alone in trusting Snape...others dont either..again is this becuase they have told him or because Snape can tell?

This chapter has proven to be more confusing then i thought!!!

[Shan]

This chapter has proven to be more confusing then i thought!!!

Agreed. Just wait, Tragic. If you think this one is confusing, just wait. I'll confuse you even more with some later chapters.

I do think we have come up with some very interesting stuff though.

Shan

[Shan]

Chapter 2 was some chapter wasn't it?

Unless you can come up with some more that you want to discuss, I think I am ready to move on to chapter 3. What say you?

Also I made some posts in Peter's discussion thread about the entire book. If you would like to read and make comments, I would love to hear what you think too.

Shan